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Episode 327

327. What No One Tells You About Opening a Second Pilates Studio, with Laura Saggers and Raphael Bender

Laura Saggers joins me to share the real story behind expanding from one to two Pilates studios.

We cover the unexpected challenges of growth, what worked at one location but not the other, and how she navigated ClassPass, staffing, and competition.

If you’re considering opening a second studio, this conversation will show you what no one tells you before you take the leap.

Find Laura here:

Connect with me on Instagram: @the_raphaelbender

Download a free course guide:



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

AdBarker - https://adbarker.com/privacy
Transcript

WEBVTT

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Music.

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Welcome to Pilates Elephants. I'm here with Laura Saggers. Welcome, Laura.

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Hi, Raph. So good to have you back again. It's been a while. Thank you.

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It has been a while. I think this is the third time on Pilates Elephants,

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but we did a lot of, before podcasting, we did do interviews. We did.

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So there's a handful of those beforehand as well.

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So yeah, it's great to be back. It'd be interesting to look at some of those early ones.

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Oh, I was actually thinking that the other day, that it would be great to go

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back and re-watch that very first interview opening, Rise.

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Yeah. Yeah, it was like the week we opened. Eight years ago, I was on with that.

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Yeah. So I'm not sure if I'd be up for that. I think I'd just be too cringing. Yeah.

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I know. A lot has changed in nine years. Yeah.

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So just an easy one to start. Like how, when you fill out like a visa application

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or some other kind of form, like when it says like occupation,

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like what do you put in the occupation box?

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How do you describe what you did? I put in studio owner.

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Is that a recent thing or when did you start putting that in?

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I think I have for a while, probably, um, maybe two years into, um, Essendon.

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So Bryce Flight is Essendon. um it's funny

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because it depends where I am too sometimes I will just go Pilates instructor

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because it's easier and and but I do when I go um international international

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travel I will put studio owner and I don't know what I just do,

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and and so like what does a typical weekday look like for you.

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A typical weekday um i

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have tried to create a little bit more routine um in the last couple of months

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um and i have tried to put in a little bit more balance with my son as well

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um so yeah it's waking up um i've been exercising in the morning which always helps,

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I wake up around 7.30, so I'm not an early riser.

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I think teaching Pilates is the only time where I've been an early, early morning person.

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And also my son is 15, for anyone who is listening to me speak for the first time.

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So, yeah, anyone with little kids knows that you just get up when you get up.

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And when they're younger, yeah, the early mornings are just a thing.

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So now that he's a bit older and, yeah, teenage, anyone with teenagers will

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understand that they sleep in.

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So it's been nice to kind of, yeah, have a wake-up time that is kind of more set to me these days.

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Yeah, I'm very lucky at both studios that the morning crew who take the 6am

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classes are so consistent and there's enough trainers around that I'm not back up for 6am.

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So, yeah, so 7.30, I do exercise now and I've been mixing it up.

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I've been doing a little bit of yoga for the first time ever,

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which has just been good to kind of have a little bit away from Reforma.

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I've also had an injury that I've been managing and I've found that yoga has

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been kind of really good.

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Um yeah and then breakfast and into

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the full work day and it can look really really different

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um every day is really kind of unique as what happens and which trainer needs

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this and clients and yeah it's I kind of feel like that's where I go into all

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right I'm ready for the day and what's going to happen.

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And so what is your, like, just walk us through a very high level.

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Like what are the component parts of your various businesses and that you run?

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Okay, so I have two Reforma Pilates studios.

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One is coming up to nine years old and I have had that myself.

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And the second one is with my partner, Nathan, and we've been running that for

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one year. So it's just turned one a couple of months ago.

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The first studio has 13 machines and

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we were doing 70

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classes a week and we I'm

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sure we'll talk about this we've dropped it down to around 55

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at the moment and then nor the new

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studio has 18 machines and we

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have gone the other way where we've started with 45

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on the schedule and now we're up to pushing 70

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now with 18 beds so yeah it's

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it's been a whirlwind managing the

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two because they're both very different and at different stages and

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um yeah having a

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business partner in one and being solo

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in the other is also um a new

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challenge um yeah

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so and and you also have a podcast are

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you still do you still do business coaching on the

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side I I put a hold on

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um business coaching when we

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opened North Melbourne I could see it coming from a mile away that I just didn't

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have the time and energy to give to other people while I was trying to channel

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into opening a new studio ourselves um so I haven't for the last 18 months and

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I do miss it I loved I loved doing it but um.

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Yeah, you've only got so much time and energy throughout the day and the two

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studios have kind of taken all right of that at the moment.

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And yeah, I recently launched a podcast called Diary of a Studio Owner and that's

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just kind of my side little passion project at the moment to kind of fill my

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cup in a different way than running a business.

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Yeah. So you opened Rise North Melbourne, your first, sorry,

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Rise Essendon, your first studio almost nine years ago.

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I remember I interviewed you, like you said, like the week you opened or something.

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And like in retrospect now, like that, that was kind of a really good time to open a reformer studio.

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There was literally no competition, you know, and the studio did really phenomenally

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well for a number of years.

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We're now in a different time.

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There's a lot more competition. The market has evolved. You know,

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ClassPass is a thing. Oh, yeah.

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So, you know, so there's a lot that's gone on.

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You know, what did you, and then you opened up Rise North Melbourne with your

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partner Nathan a year ago.

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Like, what did you learn from opening Studio No. 2?

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Okay so studio number two um in this stage of the industry i feel like,

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where we are we're basically in the middle of the city we're right near the

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victoria mark if anyone's familiar with melbourne um it's north melbourne but

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it is very much cbd radius.

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So it's a very densely populated area. There's lots of students,

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lots of transient people, like people, like students who are there for a semester

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or a year or whatever. Yep.

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That's our demographic and it is, yeah, very much student, international students,

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yeah, people coming in for work for the city.

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So I do feel like we have nailed the location and the demographic there with the 18 machines,

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ClassPass has been phenomenal in that business, which was really quite shocking

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to me because I had ClassPass for the first studio and ended up getting rid of it after 12 months.

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I worked out pretty quickly that it just wasn't worthwhile having.

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So after three months of opening North, I'll see you next time.

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That the demographic is all on ClassPass.

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So if you're not on it in an area like that where we can service so many people

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with 18 machines in a class, 18 people in a class, we're kind of missing out.

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So we made the decision to jump on ClassPass and I've gone both studios back

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on and I feel like it's had such an amazing impact for North,

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but for Essendon And it's kind of gone back to square one,

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which is what I learnt the original time when I went under 12 months.

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So, yeah, I'm interested to get your thoughts on Class Pass,

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Raf, because I'm sure you've got, yeah.

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Well, you know, I'm intrigued with what you say about North Melbourne and the

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18 beds making it worthwhile, because basically you're the very first studio

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owner I've ever talked to who, where it's been a positive.

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Yep. And essentially, you know, I view ClassPass in a very negative light.

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I feel like they essentially send you half-price customers.

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And, you know, when, I mean, I know the math of running a Pilates studio very

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well, and you can't afford to drop your price by 50% and still make a profit.

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But, um, so I feel like they're sort of sucking the oxygen out of the,

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out of the business for a lot of, a lot of studios. Oh, a lot. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree with you. And I do think that our North Melbourne studio

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is like a needle in the haystack where I,

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I didn't think that we would be having like such a positive experience in that business.

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But ultimately when you do do the maths and if we were filling 18 beds with.

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Customers paying full price all the time yeah

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so that you can do the math that obviously it

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would be even better and that's the goal so yeah

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long term the goal is to convert as

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many class pass people into like paying

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customers to our business direct

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but yeah for the first 12 months of

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running the studio it it really has been

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yeah a positive and it's yeah

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you've made it work because you've changed the unit economics of

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your business by having 18 reformers and therefore you're only paying a single

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wage you're only paying single you know serving of rent for that session and

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if you've got more warm bodies in there even if they're paying you less per

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person it still adds up to a decent way. It still adds up, yeah, precisely.

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So, yeah, but it does not work the same for the other studio and I know there's

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so many business studio owners out there that do feel the stress of what ClassPass

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has put on studios and business owners and trying to just operate your business.

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And so it's sort of like a highly addictive drug for a lot of studio owners.

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It's like, yeah, you know it's bad for you, but it's really hard to stop using. Yeah.

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And it's the fear factor too of going, oh, if I go off it, we're going to then lose those customers.

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And yeah, it's the, it's kind of the lack mentality can kind of.

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Jump in a little bit where you do have to just go make the cut and it's better

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in the long way in the long run and i've got i've got a couple of studio owners

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who've done that and they,

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both weaned it down so they first they put class pass only for certain classes

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then they put only a certain number of spaces for class pass then they allowed

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their members to book like three six twelve months in advance if they had like

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a current membership so that the class

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people get second dibs and then when the

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class people pass people like oh but i want to book further in advance you're

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like well buy a membership you know yeah yeah yeah you

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yeah yeah and then yeah then a

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pretty obviously pretty intensive communication to those people

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about the benefits of of membership and but

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to making those tangible i think the limiting the

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number of spots in which classes class class people can book into and

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then also giving members like a really long book

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ahead window but only for

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members that sort of gives a

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tangible benefit to upgrading to a membership and that's

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i've seen two people successfully to like eliminate class pass from their studios

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and convert not everybody obviously but a reason you know like half or a bit

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more than half of the class pass people to to memberships yeah no that's great

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advice And that's how I did it originally,

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the first time I did it.

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Now you have to do it again. Yeah, now I have to do it again.

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But that's exactly the way to do it. I didn't even realize that at the Essendon

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studio, I already had it set, that class-class people couldn't book 12 hours

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prior to the class time starting, so it had to be well in advance.

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And we do already have it set that there's only a small amount.

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The class has to be full to a certain capacity.

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Once you reach that capacity, there's not even an option for ClassPass people

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to book in. Your members get priority.

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So, there's definitely settings for any kind of way you want to manoeuvre that. Yeah. Yeah.

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So, you know, tell me about that, you know, what you said at the beginning,

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how the classes at Essendon have gone down.

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Now, I mean, 70 is an insane number of classes. Yeah.

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I mean, I typically think of 55 as being the functional.

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You know like the maps if you're running a really busy studio 55 is a good number

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to aim for yeah so say 70 is over the top but but tell me about the the journey

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you know with Essendon because,

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like I said a minute ago you kind of opened up at a

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really opportune time in hindsight like it wasn't obvious at

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the time that that was really good timing but no it was yeah

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so you've had a couple of big franchises open up nearby offering like unlimited

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for cheap cheap as and uh and yeah so what impact has that had on your business

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and and how has that shaken out like how long have they been there and and has

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have you kind of reached some some kind of equilibrium with that,

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okay yes yeah so when i originally opened um hindsight's a great thing but i

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kind of wish that I did just run and open a whole heap of studios because I

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used to think just having one studio in a suburb was like, oh,

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there's already a studio there.

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There's already a studio in Los Angeles. I won't open one. Yeah. Yeah.

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But, yeah, it was kind of the opposite where it was still educating people on

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what Reformer Pilate is. Yeah, yeah.

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Is um but very quickly obviously yeah it's highly addictive and once once people

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kind of step through the door and they experience how good it is it kind of

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sells itself so it was a very good time to open that first studio um,

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like our other podcasts and interviews there's

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been all those challenges along the way so it wasn't

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complete smooth sailing there was so much growth and learning

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and trial and error like in

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any business there's always yeah this

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thing's not working what do we do trial and error until you kind

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of get it right so yeah I'm

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not saying it was like 100% smooth sailing but it

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was on an upward trajectory all the

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way through up until probably our seventh birthday right

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before opening studio along

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that journey like over seven years you can imagine how much the industry has

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changed and there's been so many studios that have opened up during that time

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as well so So my learning process through that was when a new studio does open up.

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It would usually take maybe two months.

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It wouldn't impact the business, but you would kind of notice a kind of little

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drop in attendance, maybe a little decline in sales for a month,

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and then it would kind of just come back like normal.

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So whenever a studio was about to open, I'd kind of just, in the back of my head, like,

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pre-plan and go okay like could have like

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a little decline here you know and then we just

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go back to usual back to usual that's people just being

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curious and going trying to eat the new place and and they

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like you were saying before with intro offers you get an intro offer you do

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two weeks of pilates whatever the intro offer is and then yeah maybe they like

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it better that's fine we've got space for more people to come like it levels

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itself out or they come back and it's same same um so yeah up until um,

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opening North Melbourne, which was March last year,

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where we started to renovate, I decided to change our branding and move the

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booking system at Essendon whilst two major franchises.

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Came to our suburb and opened in that same month.

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So, again, hindsight's a wonderful thing where even saying it out loud now,

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I just laugh because I'm like, what was I thinking?

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This is not the time. Whilst I'm about to open a new studio.

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Move the booking system, change the branding and have two really,

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really big marketing budgets come into the area to spread their intro for like wildfire.

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So that's been the first time where I

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have really noticed it at the studio and

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I also just think in general there are so many Pilates

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studios every gym has reformer

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Pilates now too and I've always viewed

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that as such a positive thing like the more people in

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yeah with awareness that's

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great like they're going to eventually find their way

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to your business and you you can

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yeah cater to the people who want who

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you are in can service um and

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it's great people are exercising that's what we want so um

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yeah I did feel at

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that time though I think at that

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point it was really hard to pinpoint what

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it was like was it the booking system was it

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the branding was it doing the branding and

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the booking system at the same time probably yes it's probably a

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combination of all of the above and you were opening north melbourne so

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you're probably and we were renovating north melbourne yep

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and um we also.

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Moved house in that time so i

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mean i don't you know i'm just guessing but i'm imagining like

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if i was a member at essendon in that time i would have

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been like kind of frustrated with the new booking system i couldn't figure out

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how to use it yeah and noticed that you weren't around as often and noticed

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that uh the new studio had opened up two blocks away with like unlimited classes

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for a month for 49 or whatever it was yeah.

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They had they both had really really strong intro offers where um i think there were like,

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$49 for at least three weeks unlimited.

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Yeah. I wouldn't call that strong. I'd call that aggressive.

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Yeah. Aggressive. That's a great word. Yep.

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Strong to me is something that convert that one, uh, covers the cost of acquisition

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of that customer and two converts well,

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like converts well, like it's easy to get people to buy $49 for unlimited for

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a month, but it's not necessarily easy to convert those people into long-term

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members at like 60 bucks a week or whatever. Um, yeah.

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So, I mean, I don't know any of the economics of those franchises and they're

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still open, so I can, you know, it must be working to some extent.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And so how have you adapted, you know, and what equilibrium have you reached,

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if you have, you know, with those two new competitors in the local market now?

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Um well like I was saying the

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last 12 months I really have

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been just trial and error with

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Essendon to try and pinpoint what exactly has not been operating as smoothly

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as it used to um so it's been a really good learning curve in understanding

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the business again on another level,

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um so yeah it's

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it's it's just a lot of trialing different things i want to jump in with a follow-up

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question to that then which is because this has been my experience like time

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and time again in my business like what is something that you thought you had

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figured out until you realized that you didn't have it figured out at all?

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Oh, that's a really good question.

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Everything?

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Well, come on, you know how to teach footwork. Yes.

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I think...

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Probably having that kind of same system that I thought was kind of foolproof

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in marketing and how we operate and how we do things,

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I think with the industry it's changed.

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So I wouldn't say that I haven't, I, yeah, I wouldn't say it's that I didn't know.

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It's just that it's changed so much now that you have to pivot.

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It doesn't work anymore. Yeah.

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And it's trying to figure out what works next. It's basically starting from scratch again. Yeah.

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And it is a different a different

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i'm different too which is my mom

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actually said to me the other day she's like well you're

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not the same person you were nine years ago when you first opened

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like of course of course it's going to be different and of course what you're

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doing next is going to be different we went and i'm coming from a different

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perspective as well with another the studio we went through that at breathe

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well being my studio and we started in 2007 we,

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no one knew what group performer was we had to explain it all we

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were handing out flyers we had lead boxes like

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physical lead boxes in cafes and things like that and you know that worked really

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well for a while until it didn't and and we had to completely reinvent you know

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a few times when kx started in that model of you know 10 reformers in a room

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started becoming the dominant model,

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we had 18 reformers in the CBD then as well.

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And so what was your model that was working that stopped working?

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So we have, we've gone from 12 to 13 machines always.

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Oh, actually, I take that back. You had 10 and 6 at one point.

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I had 8 and 6 and then 10 and 6.

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And then we got rid of the second side. We had one big studio.

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And can I just say, dear listener, if you're listening to this And you've got

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that set up of like, you've got two smallish studios, like rooms in one studio.

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We've got like eight reformers in one and four in the other.

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It's like, for the love of God, knock out the wall and just make it one big space.

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Don't do it to yourself.

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Yeah, yeah. So I take it back. That was how we originally started.

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We started with unlimited membership.

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With that same set up too, which no.

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Please, please don't. Please don't give me money. please please please don't

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make a profit yeah you don't want to make a profit and do that yeah,

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um so that was the original and yeah

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then eventually one big studio 12 machines managed to get 13 then we had covert

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that machine that 13 machine has gone in and out due to spacing at times but

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we've got 13 in there at the minute um and mainly just getting into a rhythm with the marketing and.

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Retention emails, all that kind of.

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Cycle after a couple

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of years it's really fascinating to

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watch the patterns so you kind of know okay this works then this works in September

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and it kind of goes into a little routine so I think with so many studios around

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at the moment it's not that that routine doesn't work.

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It's just that there's so many other offers all the time that it's, I feel like.

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It's finding a new way to communicate to your clients that we're,

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I'm still working that out. I'm, I still don't have the answers.

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So do you mean to differentiate yourself or something else? Yeah, exactly.

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And also not get into the habit of always having to do a discount or a sale

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pack or a challenge or, yeah, relying on retention, marketing emails.

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Yeah. Once you do those types of discounts and challenges and promos,

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like it can be, again, it's kind of addictive because you do one,

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you're like, oh, we made all these extra sales. Yeah.

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But then what happens is you pull sales forward from the next month, really.

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So you didn't actually make extra sales. You just did make some of next month's sales this month.

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And now next month, you're struggling for sales. So you have to do another promotion

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and pull sales forward from the next month. and basically you get on a treadmill

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and you can't, it's very hard to get off it.

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Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think, um.

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In the last 12 months, I remember having a

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catch up with you and Julie and mentioning that

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we did a sale where we were opening north and everything was happening and I

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was noticing the rapid decline at Essendon and I did a 50 pack for $750 and

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it just went like wildfire.

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It was a flash sale it was only 48 hours

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and we did 72k in that 48 hours and there's one side of you that is like oh

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wow that's great but then the flip side of it that has ramifications because

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those clients are then they've already bought their pack it's pre it's prepaid money like you So, yeah,

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so my mindset right now is not those short-term fixes.

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It's going, okay, how can we make this more sustainable long-term?

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So, I'm not saying you never do sales or challenges or things like that,

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but how can we keep consistency where you don't have to do things like that?

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Yeah, I feel the same. I feel there's a place for those types of tools,

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promotions and salers and challenges and things.

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And that is when you just really need short-term cash, you know,

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and like that can be fantastic.

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Um, but they do kind of create.

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Basically, you pull sales forward from the next month or two.

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Yeah, it's a domino effect.

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It's not like anyone listening too could go, oh, wow, that's a lot of money

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to have injected into the business.

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But there's a trade-off to that. But your sales going down over the next.

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I'm still working with that trade-off.

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I'm still learning it because when you do something like that,

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I knew when I did it too, I knew that there was going to be a learning outcome

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from it because it's not a, oh yeah, and you don't get that and run off and go traveling.

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That's literally to pay all your bills. That's to pay your wages for the next three months. Yeah.

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And your tax and everything else that is there.

::

Yeah. So, yeah, I know you know it all too well, Raph, and you've had so many

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pivots with Breathe that I know you know.

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Yeah, well, the education business, I would say, is evolving even more quickly

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than the studio business because I think the education business is at an earlier stage.

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Like the education marketplace is where this, the studio marketplace was like

::

five years ago, you know, um,

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because it's just, it's just developing and, uh, uh, like those franchises that

::

move next door to you, they're both off a training, uh, instructional training.

::

Yeah. So, so they're, they're, they're kind of metaphorical figuratively,

::

like setting up down the block from me as well.

::

Yeah. So it is evolving very quickly and this, you know, what worked two years

::

ago isn't working now and, and, uh, so there's a lot of that happening for us as well.

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Um, you know, what's, what's going really well for you right now?

::

Um our trainers

::

and our team culture are going

::

really well um particularly at

::

north melbourne with the new studio i feel

::

like that that's really amazing

::

to see nath's been doing um reformer

::

academy onboarding all the new trainers and that's been super successful and

::

having consistency um so when you say culture like what specifically do you

::

mean by that when you say your culture's going well um so all the trainers that we have.

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They are all like i wouldn't

::

say friend but they they're all together or maybe

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i should say friends like there's there's a really nice camaraderie

::

yeah yeah with that is

::

not like we've never said this is what you have

::

to do it's like it's organic and they all

::

go to each other's classes and they all have their own little catch-ups and

::

it's really nice to see from this perspective because I feel like that was me

::

as a trainer but that was also me the first part of.

::

Owning a studio for the first maybe even five years I

::

feel like I I wouldn't say initiate would initiate but I was a part of that

::

whereas this time I'm still a part of it but I'm not I'm not organizing I'm

::

not orchestrating it I'm not there day in day out doing it with them it's,

::

it's what about the what about the because I remember talking with Nathan about

::

this before you guys opened and you know being very impressed by you know what

::

he was planning to do with the team and really,

::

I feel like that's something almost every studio owner gets wrong.

::

And I've just recently done a couple of episodes, maybe three episodes on this,

::

that studio owners almost always don't give enough guidance and feedback and

::

coaching to their staff.

::

And they often have, I'd say usually have staff that everyone's just kind of

::

teaching random styles of different Pilates and there's no like real cohesion between the team.

::

And I remember talking to Nathan a bit over a year ago and he was saying,

::

I'm going to train those people up.

::

They're going to teach the Nathan Ross Rees, you know, Reformer Academy way.

::

And I was like, yeah, go. That's awesome.

::

So tell me about the style of

::

Pilates and how that's going in terms of alignment between the team there.

::

Yeah. So he's literally doing what he said.

::

Um so yeah it's it is really great because there is that um,

::

consistency across all the classes

::

um it is

::

it has been funny because I've run

::

Essendon myself for so long and

::

it still is my my like

::

I'm solo in Essendon and having Nathan

::

North off um having trainers that have been at Essendon for some of them have

::

been there for eight years still like I've still got some people who have been

::

there yeah since almost the start,

::

I do notice there's a little bit

::

of difference between the two still um just

::

inconsistency but I think

::

it's mainly because of the age

::

of the studio too where north is

::

very fresh and everybody's kind of new and they're all

::

growing together whereas Essendon has kind of we've got clients that have been

::

coming since the start they smash out that like they are so strong like insanely

::

strong I I genuinely think we've got the strongest advanced clients in Melbourne,

::

Not in Adelaide, but in Melbourne.

::

So, yeah, I think you originally asked what are our class styles.

::

We're doing progressive reformer classes where each class we give spring level choices.

::

And the idea is that we are progressively loading clients in every single exercise

::

to get a specific outcome from what we're teaching so that they can always grow

::

and they're always, yeah,

::

levelling up their classes to get stronger.

::

Yeah, but like I was saying, I do notice that having trainers that have been

::

around for a long time in my first studio compared to the new trainers that

::

are coming in all doing the same training.

::

Yeah, it's hard to describe but it's.

::

Yeah. So tell me about the, there's kind of a long question in here.

::

It's got maybe a couple of, like a few questions within it, which is,

::

okay, you've got these two studios, your partners in one and you've solely owned the other.

::

Yep. combined with the fact that, and now Nathan, who's your romantic partner

::

as well as your business partner, also has his own business that you're not

::

a partner in, which is the Reformer Academy.

::

Reformer Academy, yep. And he does his workshops too.

::

Right. And so he does workshops in Australia and around the world.

::

And you're both partners in this North Melbourne studio.

::

I'm guessing you're 50-50 partners in that. It is, yep. And so,

::

yeah, so firstly, you know, so my questions are like, how do you navigate the,

::

the complexity of having multiple businesses with different kind of ownership?

::

And I mean, they're both branded rise.

::

Yeah. But they're not exactly the same. Like the, when I say brand,

::

what I mean is not necessarily your logo and whatever I mean,

::

like what people say about the business.

::

Yeah, the culture and the, yeah. So the brand isn't exactly the same at both

::

studios and obviously there's financial and marketing and all of that stuff

::

that's not 100% shared between them.

::

How do you navigate that? And then secondly, how do you navigate having your

::

romantic partner and your business partner as the same person?

::

It's a lot. It's a lot. i

::

think how i navigate it it's like it it is

::

um i spend a lot of my time

::

thinking all the time all i do is

::

think about all the things so even when you ask me at the start what does a

::

day look like i'm just constantly like problem solving going okay how do we

::

do this how do we do this like and it's i'm the only person that can do that

::

no one can do that for me um Um,

::

but yeah, marketing and there's a few expenses that the businesses can split,

::

but then like you're saying, RAF2, there are their own separate.

::

So they are completely separate entities.

::

Um, any shared costs, they do get split and we work it out instantly.

::

It's no one owes anybody anything from either.

::

Um it's been a really long journey for me navigating that because it is really hard um because.

::

I'm so used, I was so used to just rolling and taking action myself.

::

Whereas having a business partner is great, but then also it's,

::

you still have to communicate.

::

And I've said this before, but I'm so lucky that we do see eye to eye on most

::

things that, like, we do work really well together.

::

Off um but it is still communication and

::

there's extra um yeah it's

::

just when you're doing it by yourself you just kind of can do

::

it when you want to my my recollection and my impression from the outside as

::

well and i guess i you know i talked with you guys whenever we come over to

::

your place for for a meal a little while back that nathan's really i mean even

::

though you're both very skilled at teaching Pilates.

::

I mean, you've taught tens of thousands of Pilates classes at this point. Oh, yeah. You know.

::

I don't know how many trainers I've trained coming through the studio as well.

::

And was it great for a little bit with you guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

::

And so you're very, very experienced, but it seems like Nathan's really taken

::

the lead in the teaching the trainers and coaching the trainers and setting

::

the class, you know, standard.

::

And you've taken more ownership of the marketing and the operations. Is that accurate?

::

Yes. I would say yes. And just the back-end running of everything, yeah, operations.

::

And how did you come to that arrangement and how's that working for you?

::

I think because Nathan has Reformer Academy and he was doing workshops and he

::

was always keen to be teaching in the studio as well.

::

Whereas with Essendon, I was already at a place where I was happy just doing

::

my three classes a week. Nathan just loves teaching reformer.

::

He just loves teaching reformer. And I also, with the back end of the business,

::

sometimes ignorance is bliss And I think the first time opening Essendon,

::

I was so naive and I think it's,

::

that was kind of a positive at that time whereas this time going into opening

::

another business i knew i know and i still i still was naive because it was

::

more than what i even expected and,

::

yeah naif was always going to be on the schedule was super

::

excited to be training trainers so that's kind of how it happened and then coming

::

from running Essendon so seamlessly for so long it just kind of made sense at

::

the time but that's not to say that it's been easy because I.

::

After 12 months I do kind of recognize that I'm also not supposed to be just

::

behind a computer and working like this because I'm not happy doing it.

::

So at the minute, this is just how it is,

::

but I do have to work out ways to also go back to my roots,

::

which were teaching and also being with people in community and doing more in person.

::

And that's naturally happened at Essendon. So I'm picking up a few more covers

::

and, yeah, going back to teaching on the schedule a little bit,

::

which has been fulfilling for me.

::

How do you guys manage the tension between, you know,

::

you have this shared business at North Melbourne and then each of you has your

::

own businesses and they're all competing for your time and attention, right?

::

So if Nathan's off on some grand world tour teaching 50 workshops in the UK,

::

Europe, the US, however, it's like, well, who the heck's, you know,

::

looking after North Melbourne? It's me.

::

And vice versa, if you're focusing on Essendon, you know, same, right?

::

So how do you guys navigate that tension?

::

It's hard. But we don't have it right at the minute, I don't think.

::

But we're getting better and that's all you can do, I think.

::

I do think up until maybe Feb this year, North Melbourne has been our main focus,

::

being like the brand new studio that's been like,

::

and I did teach at North as well for the first three months.

::

And.

::

That really, I feel like that put more pressure because we were working like

::

ships in the night at home, also stress,

::

but also talking about it all the time because it needed it.

::

And there wasn't, it's not like a, like, ideally now it would be like,

::

all right, after nine o'clock, let's not talk about the studios.

::

It doesn't happen all the time, but you can kind of go, okay,

::

not tonight. I've got enough.

::

Switch off. But at that point in time, that first six months of the business,

::

it's like having a newborn baby.

::

You can't be like, oh no, we can't talk about this right now.

::

Cause it, it, you need to talk about it right there and then to get it sorted.

::

Um, so I feel like, yeah, now we've kind of got a little bit more balanced,

::

not having to have after.

::

I feel like the 12-month mark at North was that milestone for me to be like, okay, we're good.

::

We're actually doing really good. So it's time to focus for me on Essendon because

::

that's where I need to be investing more time and energy now.

::

And Nath also back into doing what he loves with Reformer Academy and workshops as well.

::

So I feel like just the timeline in general has given us a little bit more time.

::

I think it's really important too that we still do have individual things happening

::

as well because I found that it was hard, especially we're both very independent.

::

Yeah, just individuals and to then be doing something so,

::

Like a mesh together all the time. We both need that.

::

But you and Julie do it, Raph. I feel like looking from an outside perspective,

::

you and Julie do it so well.

::

What's your secret? I think we do do it pretty well.

::

I mean, we've certainly had our moments where we've struggled.

::

And so, you know, Jules and I have been married 21 years. We've been together 27 years.

::

I've got an 18-year-old daughter.

::

We run a business together that we work from home.

::

And so we literally spend almost 24 hours of every day, every day of the year together.

::

And then when we're not working, it's like we go on across Adelaide to visit

::

Julie's family or we go to my mum's place for Sunday lunch or whatever.

::

It's like, yeah, we, we do pretty much everything together.

::

Uh, you know, occasionally she'll go out with her friends for an evening.

::

But, um, so I think how we navigate that is we have, and you know,

::

it's not perfect. You know, we do occasionally get cranky at each other,

::

but that's, it never lasts for more than 24 hours usually.

::

Um, uh, we have, so we work physically different place in the house.

::

I'm talking to you from my upstairs office, Julie's in her downstairs office

::

right now. Um, so that's good.

::

So we, we, we don't really see each other throughout the day when we're working,

::

we come together at the end of the day or at lunchtime or whatever, and we, we talk.

::

Uh, the second thing is we have clearly defined roles. Like we're both employed

::

by the company in different roles

::

and we have different KPIs and different departments that we work in.

::

So it's like, we're not constantly treading on each other's toes,

::

um, you know, within the business.

::

Uh, and that we, we, we, we love talking about the business.

::

Like we, you know, when we go out for dinner on Friday night,

::

which we do every week, like we talk about the business.

::

I mean, we, we also talk about other stuff, but mostly what we're interested in is the business.

::

Um, but we do, we do kind of have an unspoken rule that we don't like once we're

::

on the sofa at the end of the day,

::

you know, winding down, it's like, yeah, we don't, we don't bring

::

up like oh you know some problem in the business

::

like that's not the time to talk about that did

::

you hear this yeah and or when i bring julie

::

because you know we have coffee in the morning uh jules

::

likes to sit in bed and have her coffee and so we didn't have coffee together

::

quite often it's like she just needs half an hour to stare at the wall and wake

::

up and you know like i don't come in and go oh you know what should we do about

::

this yeah yeah so you know like we've learn where each other's boundaries are

::

and you know we we give each other feedback that is very.

::

Blunt very you know very straight up and every

::

now and then one or the other of us gets a bit defensive about that

::

yeah you know um yeah but we

::

work that's that's that's not the norm mostly we're like

::

yeah we just move move past it and it's

::

all good it's like we you need to be able to be honest um yeah

::

with each other i would say that's that's

::

it and we're just we're just honest with each other about where we think each

::

other's and you know the other thing is with julie and me like i've been

::

running businesses since 2007 and so

::

i've and she only really started in this

::

business like four or five years ago and so i've got like a 12 year head start

::

on her yeah you know in terms of building a skill set and and she's learning

::

very very fast and she's now at the point where she takes major responsibility

::

for substantial areas of the business but there's there has been that skill disparity, uh,

::

you know, like I'm a flight instructor and she's not, um, you know, uh.

::

But now she's starting to have expertise in certain areas of the business that

::

I don't understand as well as she does, which is.

::

Yeah. Starting to level itself. Yeah.

::

Yeah. That's amazing, Julie. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she's, yeah.

::

She's like, I think the thing that has really enabled that is that we both haven't,

::

but I really want to shout out to Jules on this.

::

A growth mindset where she like, she genuinely wants to get better.

::

And I think a lot of people think growth mindset is like, you know.

::

Studying and learning which, which it is, but I think it's, it's for most of

::

us, it's really easy to study and learn in the areas in which we're already comfortable.

::

And so like learning, you know, if you're a Pilates instructor,

::

learning more things to do with fitness circle or five new reformer exercises or whatever.

::

But it's like, what about the things that you fucking hate and avoid?

::

Like how to have difficult conversations with your clients when they're,

::

you know, they're, they're pushing your boundaries, you know?

::

Yeah. So that growth mindset has been just like, I would say pivotal and foundational

::

to us staying together and successfully working together over a long time.

::

Yeah it's amazing amazing and you

::

do date night too right we we do date night

::

yeah um every friday night uh you know occasionally jules

::

will do something else on a friday night and so we'll do date night on a saturday

::

night but yeah basically every friday night but at least once a week yeah because

::

we don't do that so i need to do something yeah friday night date night has

::

been awesome for us and sometimes our daughter comes along as well like it doesn't

::

have to be a big romantic thing.

::

We'd just go down and have a pizza at the local place. Or sometimes we'd go

::

somewhere really special, you know, get dressed up and whatever.

::

Day before yesterday, we went into the city for the whole day and just walked

::

around and had lunch at a nice place and talked about this, that and the other,

::

window shopped and stuff. Yeah, it was good. Talked about the business a lot.

::

But still, you're doing something else. You're in a new environment. It's different.

::

Yeah. It's not in the house, same, same, you know, out doing something.

::

Yeah. And that was Julie's idea because she gave me some really blunt feedback

::

and I got a bit defensive about it.

::

So she was like, okay, let's get out of the house and let's go and have a nice

::

day and let's talk about it.

::

Yes. Do you think that you can find balance?

::

Or do you think balance is a little bit… What do you mean by balance?

::

Like work-life balance? Work-life balance.

::

Do you think that's possible? because I've gone in waves where I think.

::

Maybe it can be, but I'm kind of at the swinging back the other way thinking, I don't know.

::

I think if you, when you run a business that is your life, you can't really,

::

it's, is it ever balanced?

::

Yeah. I think, well, I think balance, I think where, where I disagree with what

::

I perceive as being what most people believe about this is that the word balance

::

implies it's like 50, 50, you know? Yeah.

::

And to me that's like, well, if that's, if that's what.

::

Somebody wants great you know good good for

::

them but i don't believe that it has to be like

::

that the right balance for each person can be different and so yeah and the

::

right balance for a given person at a different season of their life can be

::

different you know and i think if you and every i believe that in life there

::

are no solutions there are only trade-offs like you can you can have this,

::

but it means you have to give up that, you know? Yeah.

::

And if you want to be very successful, like in the financial and business and

::

impact that you, you know, realms of your life, it's like, well,

::

you can't also have like heaps of leisure time and, you know?

::

Yeah. There's seasons for, yeah, yeah, yeah. And- If you're building,

::

you're not going to be going on holiday.

::

Yeah. Right. And, you know, I mean- I think that, you know, there's this parable,

::

and I'm not religious, but I really like this, and I believe it comes from the

::

Bible, where basically, you know.

::

Someone says, I prayed to God for strength, so God sent them trials to test

::

their strength, you know, prayed to God for courage, and then God sent them

::

a test of their courage, basically something that terrified them, you know,

::

and prayed to be wise, so God, you know, sent them trials, you know,

::

to… Yeah, I agree with that. I love that.

::

Yeah. I really like it.

::

And we've talked about this before as well, it's like, you know,

::

your business can never outgrow your personal, you know, limitations.

::

And I think that what excites me and Julie, I know as well, and I think,

::

you know, you and Nathan too,

::

about building a business is like who you become in the process of doing that

::

because you have to face your own, you know, blind spots, weaknesses,

::

you know, fears, you know, inadequacies.

::

Yeah, it's all exposed. Yeah. It just keeps getting exposed.

::

And you have to keep learning the lesson until you learn the lesson.

::

You just keep making the same mistake until you go, yeah, actually,

::

I'm going to do it differently.

::

Yeah. And you can't just keep getting better at the things that you're already comfortable at.

::

I mean, you can get better at them, but that's not enough.

::

It's not. That's not true growth.

::

That's just getting a little bit better. And so I think that,

::

you know, the, the mindset,

::

and this is about, you know, what we said about different seasons that there,

::

you know, it's nice to have a season where you like to have like leisure time

::

and sleep in and walk and smell the roses and spend time with loved ones and

::

all that, read books and all that kind of journal and all that kind of nice stuff.

::

But it's like, that's not the time of greatest growth in, those haven't been

::

the times of greatest growth in my life.

::

The times of greatest growth have been like struggle and grind and massive discomfort. it.

::

And massive self-doubt and,

::

you know, financial stress and, you know, like all of those things.

::

And that, those have been the times where I've grown, you know,

::

as a human, as a business owner, as a husband, as a father, you know.

::

And so I, you know, I pray for that. I pray for those, you know,

::

I pray for trials of strength and, you know.

::

I feel like you'll find this funny. before opening North,

::

and right before all the competitors and everything happened at Essendon,

::

I signed up to, what was it called? The Jack DeLuce.

::

Oh yeah, the Entourage. The Entourage, right. And my very first coaching call

::

there, I said that I was bored.

::

And that everything ran like clockwork and i needed a new challenge,

::

oh great well you got your wish then didn't you and then within literally six

::

weeks it's like i went from like playing you know video game mode like level 10 to like a level of.

::

Yeah it just went all right you want you want this

::

let's turn it up so yeah i

::

look back now and i laugh because it's exactly what you've just

::

said it's yeah i i wanted to get better and this is what got thrown at me to

::

go okay there you go and it is nice to have those times where you do travel

::

and spend time walking on the beach and reading books and hanging out with loved

::

ones You know, those are all valuable things.

::

Yeah. And I like to do those things as well.

::

And, you know, Jules and I, we're at an age now, we're a little bit older than you.

::

We're in our mid-50s. And so...

::

You know, we're conscious that we don't have endless time remaining,

::

you know, when we'll be healthy and fit and able to enjoy, you know,

::

traveling and all that stuff.

::

So we do try and travel as often as possible. But I mean, usually it's like

::

a work thing where we'll take an extra week or, but we managed to go to,

::

you know, nice places like for work in the last year.

::

We've been to Paris, Carbo, Scottsdale, Las Vegas, you know,

::

like we've been to We've been to some great places and it's,

::

it's, it's really nice to be able to do that.

::

And, and, you know, it's like, yeah, you're still working, but it's working

::

on a balcony overlooking the whales at Carbo is like, it's not,

::

it's not the, not the worst thing in the world.

::

It's pretty epic.

::

And yeah, so I think, you know, those things are valuable. And I think for each

::

of us, we get to decide what's, what's important to us.

::

And there's no, I don't, you know, I think where it becomes a problem is where

::

people have shoulds, like I should have work-life balance.

::

I, you know, I should be spending more time meditating or walking on the beach or whatever.

::

It's like, well, if you don't want to, don't, you know, like if you want to work, work.

::

If that's what, if that's what, if that's what draws you and what ignites you.

::

And I think the other thing is like that, you know, and I listened to your episode

::

with Sarah Mazzo, shout out to Sarah Mazzo, Sarah, I think you're awesome,

::

but I'm going I just like wildly disagree with you on this,

::

that, you know, Sarah said for her, the meaning, you know, of life is kind of

::

like being happy. She wants to be happy. And I totally respect that.

::

But for me, I sort of feel like that's, in my experience, kind of like not realistic

::

because it's like, you just, you literally can't be happy all the time.

::

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just, it's not, it's not possible. Like,

::

because even if conditions were ideal at all, at every moment of every day,

::

which of course they're not, it's like you just become, you adapt hedonically, right?

::

So the, the, the, the 50th spoon of ice cream doesn't taste as nice as the first

::

mouthful of ice cream, right?

::

And, and, you know, in every realm of life, that's true.

::

Like your 10,000th Pilates class isn't as exciting as your first place class.

::

You know making love

::

with your partner after 25 years is not the same

::

as the first time right and there are things that are better

::

about your 50,000th time but overall

::

it's like it's you adapt and it becomes more like every

::

day you know like we live in this amazing house that

::

when we moved into this house it's like oh my god I just wake up every morning

::

look out the window go I can't believe I'm living here and now it's just

::

yeah it becomes more water yeah you know like I don't even notice it

::

and so i feel like traveling's very much

::

like that too like the first couple of weeks first two

::

weeks you're like wow and then after a while the hotels the

::

novelty starts to wear off it's like oh another hotel oh another buffet at the

::

start it's like wow that buffet breakfast yeah i i find the same and that's

::

why we like to travel for about two weeks i think two weeks is about the optimum

::

after that you do start to feel like yeah novelty wears off yeah but for the first two weeks,

::

it's like, man, this is so awesome. You know, oh, I can't believe you get, yeah.

::

So, yeah, so I feel like the, the idea of happiness, happiness is not a permanent state.

::

I don't think it's a time, it was a permanent state.

::

And so I think like, you know, Brooke, Brooke Castillo, um, who's,

::

who runs Life Coach School, she's.

::

She's awesome. She runs a business that does like $40 million a year or something.

::

She's a really awesome entrepreneur and I think she's got a lot of wisdom.

::

She has a saying called 50-50 and what that means is basically 50% of the time

::

you're above average and 50% of the time you're below average.

::

And it's like by definition, that's true, right? And so whatever your average

::

level of happiness out of 10 is like, well, 50% of the days are going to be

::

good days and 50% are going to be bad days relative to that.

::

And so when you have a bad day that's not

::

like you feel like how are you today like no i'm

::

okay you know it's like not great not amazing you know it's like well

::

yeah that's just normal 50 50 you know

::

like and so i feel like for me happiness like i cherish those times like yesterday

::

was father's day here in australia my daughter you know spent the whole day

::

with me made me dinner got me a present maybe a dad rocks you know watched a

::

movie with me from the 80s which is like 20 years before she was born.

::

Bing, tick. Yeah. You know, so that was a moment, you know, that day was a moment

::

that I cherish and that was a happy time.

::

But it's like, well, every day is not going to be as good as that day.

::

And you shouldn't expect it to be because if every day was as good as that day,

::

it wouldn't be as good as that day.

::

Yeah. Like if she did that every day for a year, I'd be like,

::

oh, fuck, do I have to watch this movie again? You know? Yeah.

::

Yeah. It changes. it's funny because I

::

feel like Nathan and I have had a similar conversation where

::

I have said like I've similar to

::

what Sarah was saying about happiness and Nathan's

::

pretty much said exactly what you've just said that

::

it's unrealistic and that's not

::

how life is and it made me think that maybe happiness is not quite the right

::

word that it's finding joy in what you're doing is and they are two different

::

things and I do think I have to clarify with Sarah but,

::

I'm pretty sure she means happiness but when Nathan

::

and I had a similar conversation it made me

::

reflect and go well no no I don't actually mean happiness I

::

mean finding joy like there

::

still needs to be joy and that's

::

not saying that you're not going to have challenges and things are

::

going to be hard and you're going to have to do things you don't want to do and

::

things are going to happen throughout the day that are shit

::

and like it's life things happen

::

but my take on

::

it is that I still want to have the joy in what I do which almost kind of maybe

::

ties into purpose yeah that when you are living with purpose and it's true to you.

::

You, you, you're in more joy and happiness even throughout the difficult ebbs and flows.

::

So I don't know. That's just, I just thought it popped into my head then that

::

Nathan and I had a similar.

::

I wouldn't say joy for me. I'd say more alignment, but I think I,

::

I think I'm agreeing with you.

::

Like, I think, you know, there, there's a different quality to like when you're

::

grinding, just because there's a shit ton of work that needs to be done.

::

And it's like, it's like, if I could choose to do this or like go for a walk

::

in the park, I'd probably prefer to go for a walk in the park, you know,

::

but this needs doing and I'm here doing it and it's not like fun as such,

::

but it's some level on which it's satisfying or it feels empowering or something

::

because you're doing work that needs to be done.

::

And then there's a different quality to that. Like when you're going,

::

you know, and everybody listening to this will have had this experience.

::

You go into the studio to see a client that you really don't enjoy working with,

::

you know, and you're like, oh.

::

I feel like everyone knows that. Yeah. And it's like, that is,

::

there's no like satisfaction or deep sense of purpose.

::

You're just like, oh fuck, I just, I hope this hour goes quickly, you know.

::

We'll say, get it done. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I feel like it's, for me,

::

it's one of the things that has made a big difference over the last really only

::

a year or so is choosing who I work with,

::

both within the company and as clients of the company and just being like,

::

yeah, no, I don't want to work with this person, so I'm not going to,

::

just because I don't want to hang out with them. Yeah.

::

Um, and I, and I like, I don't mean to say that I've like fired somebody because

::

like. Because you don't like them.

::

Because I didn't. Well. No. No. Well, I wouldn't hire, I wouldn't hire somebody

::

if I, if I didn't think I would enjoy working with them.

::

And when I say that, I don't mean like they have to like the same football team

::

I like or the same music I like or, or, or anything like that.

::

But I mean, I have to really find them inspiring and motivating and somebody I admire, you know.

::

You want to work with them. Yeah. You want to be around them. Yeah.

::

And same with clients. Like, I've realized that, I guess.

::

My kryptonite is being around people who are, like, paralyzed by fear.

::

Yeah. You know. and.

::

And paradoxically, I love when I can, like when I can help somebody move from

::

there to actually taking action in their own best interest and moving forward,

::

like that gives me deep satisfaction.

::

But when somebody is like just stuck in a loop of procrastination based on self-doubt

::

and fear and overthinking,

::

and they can see intellectually that they're there, but they just can't get

::

out of it. They just can't take that next.

::

Yeah. I find that for some reason that just, that drains my batteries.

::

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, and so.

::

Well, for your business too, they're not where you need them to be. Right. Yeah.

::

You can't help, you can't help them because they're not ready to move forward right now. Yeah.

::

So they're not the right person. Yeah. Right. And so, you know,

::

for years I've made a big effort to like really kind of drag those people kicking

::

and screaming across the line.

::

But, you know, I've really come to a place where I'm like, okay,

::

no, that's fine. And, you know, I'll throw you back in the ocean quite happily.

::

Yeah, yeah. Save your bachelor too. Yeah. Yeah.

::

What's, you know, what's something that, you know,

::

you see that almost nobody talks about that is, you know, that is true for,

::

you know, that, and maybe no one talks about it.

::

Because they're embarrassed or they're ashamed or maybe they think everybody

::

else like doesn't have the same problem and they don't want to be the weirdo.

::

Like what's something that's an assumption that basically everybody gets wrong?

::

In business or in the studio? In business, yeah. In running a studio business. In running a studio.

::

I think it might be obvious to some people as well,

::

but I think that there's still an assumption that everybody has their shit together

::

and that outside perspective versus what is happening on the,

::

is so different to what anyone would ever imagine. Um.

::

And yeah, I wouldn't say like no one would know this.

::

I do think that there's probably some people out there, particularly when you're

::

a studio owner, you know the difference as well.

::

Because you've got your own experience. I mean, I think like,

::

you know, there's a saying, I didn't make it up, but I really like it.

::

No business is as good as it looks from the outside or as bad as it looks from the inside.

::

Yeah. And when you're on the inside, you're like, everybody's telling you,

::

oh, your business looks amazing.

::

It looks amazing. and you're like, oh, it's so fucked, I hate it,

::

you know, but then you look at someone else's business, you're like,

::

oh, I wish I had Laura's business, that looks so awesome, you know.

::

Yeah, well, it's funny, even before coming onto the podcast to talk to you,

::

I said to Nathan, I was like, I don't know if I've got too much to share at

::

the minute with Essendon, I feel like I'm not in the best place that I've ever been,

::

so it's like hard to share, and he kind

::

of reminded me that what I

::

like cutting 70 to 55 classes

::

it's like to other people like

::

55 classes is amazing like in like my like how I'm seeing it right now because

::

I've I'm coming from a different angle in that business um yeah it's not from

::

the outside perspective and to other people,

::

it's still amazing. Like it is amazing.

::

So it's a nice reminder. And like you're saying too, I guess –.

::

Yeah, where I was leading to before is that everybody in their own business

::

knows what's going on versus how it looks on the outside.

::

But maybe not everybody knows that everybody is experiencing that too.

::

That, yeah, no, I don't think anyone has their shit together all the time.

::

Like there would definitely be periods where momentum's happening in the business where,

::

yeah there'd be seasons little snippets

::

of a couple of months where there might

::

be studio owners being like yeah we're actually on an upward trajectory right

::

now but that never stays the same that's always a constant work in progress

::

so yeah I think I think that's probably,

::

the biggest thing is that not everybody has no no one has their shit together,

::

if they do it's not for long.

::

Yeah a couple of things i want to get your your comment

::

on that i've been thinking about recently one is that

::

that you know in every

::

crisis there's an opportunity and

::

it's an equal and opposite opportunity like for example when you

::

know a new competitor opens up around the corner or the industry changes or

::

the in you know whatever it might be yeah like

::

yeah that can harm you and and in very real ways like you can take money out

::

of your bank right but then it's also an opportunity to reinvent your business

::

or to really double down on what you do best in class you know and to really

::

differentiate yourself and I feel like.

::

People feel like combining that, and this is, when I say people,

::

I really mean myself, that, you know, feel like taking a backward step or a

::

sideway step or pivoting, you know, like you said, you went from 70 classes down to 55.

::

Like that's, that's, there's no way you can kind of spin that to say like,

::

oh, that's a really awesome thing where, you know, the business is thriving,

::

it's doing, you know, everything's great.

::

It's like, no, we just cut freaking 15 classes off the schedule,

::

right? So, there's 15 hours of teaching people don't have, you know,

::

money they don't have, et cetera.

::

And so, to me, that's, for a long time,

::

that's been like a blow to my ego, I felt like I'm failing because if I had

::

to cut classes or let someone go or cut someone's hours or, you know,

::

kill a course that wasn't working or whatever, it would be like, yeah, I failed at that.

::

But, you know, recently I've come to think about it differently.

::

It's like, if you look at big companies, they routinely, like Ford,

::

you know, BHP, you know, Microsoft, they routinely lay off thousands of workers,

::

whatever, if, you know, department changes or product changes or the market changes, you know,

::

it's just a normal part of doing business that they close down a division or

::

move a factory or whatever because the market changes or some other factor and

::

they have to adjust their expenses or their marketing or their whatever.

::

And they don't, I'm pretty sure they don't see it as a failure.

::

They just see it as like, oh, we've got to cut some costs on this part of the

::

balance sheet and. Like routine. Yeah. It's just routine.

::

Right. Yeah. Right. So it's like, well, yeah, when you are running downhill,

::

you run faster. And when you're running uphill, you run slower. And that's just. Yeah.

::

You know, like. Yeah. That's just how it goes.

::

And so I feel like that idea of, right, so you've got this opportunity to.

::

Now because the market has shifted in Essendon and what was working 10 out of

::

10 five years ago is now only working seven out of 10.

::

I mean, it's still working, like 55 classes is awesome, right?

::

But the shine's come off it a little bit and so you've got an opportunity to

::

double down, to reinvent,

::

to figure out what the next,

::

because something will work 10 out of 10 now

::

yeah it's just a matter of finding that thing exactly and

::

um as you were saying that too what came to mind was

::

even like with gardening you prune

::

you prune back to help the new

::

growths come so yeah it's just

::

in the cycle that it's yeah cutting

::

back to grow back stronger and finding out

::

what those little things are and I

::

have no doubt I still like I was saying I don't have all

::

the answers right this second but it's all trial and error and if anything I've

::

learned over the last nine ten years is that with trial and error eventually

::

you get it and you get it really good and it's just keep going until you find the,

::

that kind of magic jigsaw piece it's like oh that that's what we were missing there we go.

::

So yeah at this point that's exactly

::

how it is and it's just cutting back but

::

it is hard in the moment when you're in it to remember that it isn't a failure

::

like you were saying that it's it's actually just routine pull back get it strong

::

work out what's next and off it goes again you you were saying to me like off air before we,

::

you know, we were talking earlier today and, um, you're saying that,

::

you know, we were talking about imposter syndrome,

::

you know, so yeah.

::

Tell me about your experience with that.

::

I feel it with the podcast. That's, that's where it's most,

::

um, um most i'm

::

aware of it with the podcast that even after

::

like 11 years in the industry i'm still

::

thinking why am i the one like what what makes you think you can do this which

::

is crazy because i i know everybody like it shouldn't matter like if you want

::

to start a podcast start a podcast like That wouldn't be my advice to anyone.

::

Everybody's going to have their own unique way of doing things and sharing things

::

and storytelling, and there's enough room for everybody.

::

So it's funny that you can get so hard on yourself where that's absolutely not

::

how I would be with anybody else.

::

But yeah, it's real. Imposture syndrome.

::

Yeah. It seems like that's a massive thing for pretty much everybody I talk to in the Pilates world.

::

Do you think it's a bigger thing in the Pilates world than in,

::

say, like fitness, personal training or yoga?

::

That's a good question. Throughout the years, I witnessed it most with new instructors.

::

That I think that gap from like starting to teach and calling yourself a Pilates

::

instructor, even though you've done all the training and you've done everything

::

you need to do to get there,

::

I feel like it's almost like an identity shift that you haven't quite clicked into yet.

::

Like you're not regularly doing the thing enough to convince yourself even potentially.

::

And maybe like that's similar with the podcast that it is a new thing it's a new skill,

::

it's not regular like but

::

for you raf this is what episode 300 and

::

yeah 320 idol yeah like you when you've got the reps it's second nature it's

::

like you don't question it for a second but when you're starting a new skill

::

that's that's what I kind of think that maybe it's it's linked into the new

::

skill you haven't actually.

::

Yeah, clicked into your, that being a part of you.

::

That's what Alex and Layla Hormozy say about fear and imposter syndrome is that

::

like, well, it's just, you are actually an imposter because you haven't done

::

the reps yet and the self doubt, like the confidence,

::

you know, they talk about confidence being like in statistics,

::

we say we have a, you know, 73% confidence that it's going to rain tomorrow or whatever.

::

And so that that just means our confidence just

::

means our expectation of the probability of

::

an event occurring right and so your confidence that

::

you're going to nail this class that you're teaching or whatever

::

that's an that's an estimation of your percentage chance

::

of nailing the class and if you've never taught a

::

class before well the chance is realistically it's not a hundred percent you

::

know like it but if you if you've taught 10 000 classes before and you nailed

::

the last 5 000 of them it's like well your chance is like i'm going to nail

::

this class And it's a realistic estimation of the likely probability of you

::

doing that. And so you've done the reps, I guess.

::

And in those reps, you rule out all the things that could go wrong because they

::

have happened at one point or time and you have skills to be able to handle them. Right. Yeah.

::

Right. And often things need to go wrong. You know, it's been my experience

::

that I need to make the same mistake multiple times often before I really learn the lesson.

::

Like, yeah, no, I'm not doing that again. Like, ever.

::

True. But after you've made...

::

The, you know, enough mistakes, enough times you become an expert because you've made,

::

you know, I think, I can't remember who'd said it, but basically a definition

::

of expertise I saw somewhere that I really liked is an expert is somebody who's

::

made all the mistakes it's possible to make in a really narrow field.

::

Right. And so if you, if you've taught Pilates thousands and thousands of times,

::

you've made, you've literally made every possible mistake and you made them

::

so many times that you figured out, yeah, no, that's not the way to do it.

::

Yeah. And so now you just like, you know, the way to do it because you've done

::

it every way that doesn't work.

::

And you're like, yeah, no, none of those worked. I'm going to do it this way.

::

And you've done it so many, done it wrong so many times that you're just in

::

your bones, you know, that's not the way to do it.

::

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess that, that definitely draws out imposter syndrome

::

because you have the built-in confidence because you've got the skills to manage it. Yeah.

::

I feel like, you know, there is though that, I think confidence,

::

you know, I 100% agree with that in terms of confidence comes from doing the

::

reps and from having evidence that you can do a good job.

::

And that just come like at the start, like you can't do a good job as much as

::

you can when you've done 10,000 reps, you know?

::

And so, but you earn, I think you earn that confidence, but I think the mistake

::

people make is- You still have to have confidence, yeah. No,

::

but the confidence comes after the reps, not before the rep.

::

You just have to do the reps and suck and go through that. And even.

::

Do the reps that suck with confidence.

::

Well, I think you do them with, if you, if you, by confidence, you mean a behavior.

::

Yeah. A hundred percent. If by confidence you mean an internal emotion, I think.

::

Yeah. Yeah. The two different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

::

That's exactly what I mean, yeah. Is there anything that we didn't touch on

::

that you want to talk about?

::

No, I think we've covered a lot. I think we have too. Yeah, it's been great.

::

Yeah, I don't think, there's no side quest that I don't think we circled back on.

::

So, yeah, it's great.

::

Can you think of anything else? Um, I mean, there's so much I'd like to talk

::

to you about, you know, lots of the nitty gritty of running a studio,

::

like instructor pay, hiring, training, marketing,

::

you know, it's timetabling, scheduling, client retention.

::

Like I'd like to talk to you about all your financial profit,

::

KPIs, uh, yeah, coaching, why you step back from that.

::

And if you, you know, why you'd haven't gone back into that,

::

why you chose to do a podcast instead before you went back into coaching and

::

if you will go back into coaching and how might that look if you did.

::

You know, like there's so many things I'd like to discuss. Yeah, there's so many things.

::

It's like, oh, another podcast. And will, you know, is there an alternate universe?

::

Is there a possible future in which you and Nathan combine your resources and

::

become shared owners of those entities, you know, and what might that look like

::

and under what conditions would that happen?

::

Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, there's so much I'd like to discuss. There's so much, yeah.

::

How much time have we got no well let's book another one yeah okay that sounds

::

great we can do that next time great good talk laura awesome thanks raf so good to chat to you.

::

Music.

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No-BS, science-based tools to help you become a better, happier and more financially successful Pilates instructor

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Raphael Bender