Episode 351
351. Nathan Ross Rees - Total Instructor Accountability
Nathan makes the case that instructors should take 100% responsibility for filling our classes.
If our attendance is low,we should see that as a personal indicator that something in the experience or connection is missing.
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Transcript
So I'm here with Nathan Rost-Reese for, I think it must be episode seven or
::eight or 10 or something that we've done together. Welcome back,
::Nathan. Good to have you here, mate.
::Thanks, Ralph. Great to be back, mate.
::So what I want to talk about, there's a couple of things I want to talk about today.
::I'm not sure what's on your mind, but the first thing I want to have a chat
::about is something that's been, I've been thinking about a little bit lately
::is the responsibility for filling classes in a group reformer studio?
::Like, you know, what part of that lies with the studio owner?
::You know, like how much is it
::about marketing and getting people in the front door in the first place?
::And what part of it lies with the instructor?
::Like, you know, the instructor, you know, obviously retention is really important,
::you know, from the instructor perspective, but to what extent is actually just
::like getting people in, you know, filling the class because,
::you know, happy clients, one, they stay and two, they tell their friends.
::Uh, and three, you know, the other clients say, Oh, that class is popular.
::What's all the fuss about? You know, then they, they come along.
::So, you know, I guess, you know, I did a post on social media and did a podcast
::with Heath a couple of weeks back where I basically said, look,
::I think of course marketing is important, you know, and not all studios are equally popular.
::You know, you might be in a dud location or whatever it might be,
::but even within that, I think it's mostly up to the instructor.
::What's what's your uh and i got i got a i got
::very well mannered but a lot
::of pushback on that from instructors but i did have a few studio owners dm me
::and privately say fucking thank you for saying that so so as an instructor and
::a studio owner and someone who trains instructors like you know what's what's your position on that,
::Yeah, or I'm an advocate for 100% accountability.
::So as an instructor, you should really take complete responsibility for the
::amount of people that attend your class.
::You should take it personally. Like if your classes are about half full or a
::quarter full, that should sting a little bit.
::You know, that basically tells you something's not right.
::Because even if you did have half or a quarter full, all you need is some people
::to turn up and if you give them a great experience,
::they're going to come back and then you're going to get one or two next week
::and then one or two next week and it's just a matter of a couple of weeks,
::a month or two, and then that class will be full.
::So, yeah, accountability all the way and take ownership of it, take it personally.
::And, yeah, I mean, another way to look at it, because I can also look at it
::now from the perspective of training trainers and as a studio owner,
::when you look at the schedule, there's some people you can move around the schedule
::and wherever they go, it just fills up.
::So that just tells you straight away that obviously there's something about
::what they're doing which is drawing a crowd.
::So usually the thing that makes a difference is their level of personability,
::like they're just so friendly, so fun, so warm that people just feel drawn to them.
::And then you give them also way
::more uh one-on-one time so you know more things about them um and then their
::ability to get results in the class to to be credible to be able to tell them
::what they're going to feel where they're going to feel it all those little things
::they just add up and it's like uh.
::What's the most powerful thing in the universe? It's a compounding interest.
::It's got compounding interest. As soon as you get all those things stacking
::up, then it just becomes like a tidal wave.
::So, yeah. So, you know, a little bit of pushback on that.
::Now, you know, firstly, I'm in furious agreement with you, basically.
::But I think there is, I think it's not 100% black and white, I guess.
::I feel like, all right, there are for sure time slots that are harder to fill
::than others, right? Okay, if you put a class on midnight or whatever, even if it's like 6 a.m.
::On a Thursday, it's probably not going to be the most popular,
::depending on where you are, whether you're suburban or CBD or whatever it might be.
::So there are certainly time slots that are harder to fill than others.
::There's certainly class types that are harder to fill than others.
::Like if you're running the advanced class, for example, and you're in a new
::studio where there aren't any advanced clients.
::So obviously there are differences there. but typically
::what we see when we look over the month and we
::always review attendance on a monthly basis in the studios that
::i coach is we look at the average attendance for all
::the 6am slots across the month and we go huh okay how come the other 6am slots
::are averaging you know 80 percent and yours is averaging 50 percent you know
::or whatever or or we look at the average per instructor over the month we go
::okay well you're touching that 6am slot and that's kind of maybe a dud slot but scale,
::your average over the whole schedule is like, you know,
::60% and then the average of all the instructors is 75%. So yeah.
::It's not just that one slot sort of thing. So we can look at those averages.
::But I mean, for sure, there is, you know, there is something to say about time
::slots and class types on there.
::You know, how do you feel about, you know, because a lot of the comments I got
::on social media when I posted this, and like I said,
::they're all very well-mannered comments, but They were basically saying like,
::yeah, well, it's not really fair to judge, you know, Sally who's teaching at, you know, 6 a.m.
::In winter versus, you know, Mary who's teaching at the prime time,
::you know, Monday evening, you know, slot sort of thing.
::Yeah, well, there's no doubt that there is stronger preferences,
::but those stronger preferences, they're very specific to the location.
::So some locations, mornings are the most popular, you know, and then usually
::that's usually more suburban areas.
::And then other areas more closer to CBD, like nights are more popular.
::And then across the board, most places, middays aren't as popular as other times.
::So you're going to get that. It is what it is.
::As far as advanced classes go, the only way to fill an advanced class is to
::actually develop people over months.
::So if you're unable to develop people, then you're not going to have anyone
::that fits the criteria to want to be able to go to it.
::So to do that, it requires like a system, it requires progressive overload,
::it requires consistency, not just from you, but from the team.
::So that's kind of more like a top-down failure rather than just an individual one. All right.
::So here's another thing that I heard from a few people when I put this out there.
::Is like, okay, what about someone who's like, quote, a really gifted instructor,
::end quote, who's just not that popular?
::And, yeah, so, I mean, I've got a response to that, but I want to know what
::your response to that is.
::So the reason is because they put all the time and effort into queuing.
::And they don't have, it's like it's all group communication,
::no one-on-one connection.
::So all that person needs to do is connect with people one-on-one in between
::the group queuing interactions and they're going to like instantly build like
::rapport so it's like the difference between,
::having a conversation or going to a lecture you know like if someone's just
::talking at you then at some point you're kind of going to drop off and even
::if you are doing a great job,
::because there's no kind of like moments to to feel that so after even if the class was good,
::what they're going to remember is how they felt. And if they didn't really feel
::connected, then it's not going to be as good as even an instructor who wasn't
::as good, but was way more connected.
::Actually, I mean, I agree with that as far as it goes, but I think there's another
::missing ingredient there as well.
::I think a lot of instructors and studio owners.
::Confuse knowing a lot of cues, knowing a lot of anatomy, knowing a lot of exercises
::with being a good instructor.
::And so if somebody's like explaining all of the core activation and alignment
::and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're not actually challenging people
::to the point where they're actually getting stronger or more flexible.
::And they're also not connecting people with people. It's like,
::is that person really a good instructor?
::You know, like, it's like, knowing a lot of technical jargon,
::you know, to me, it's like, that's, I think a lot of people mistake that for
::actually being good at your job.
::And I think, you know, your job is to get people experience and results in the class, in the class.
::You know, experience being like, oh, that felt really good. I felt,
::I feel, you know, seen, heard, part of a gang, you know, I was absorbed in the process. It was fun.
::And then the results obviously is like, oh, my back doesn't hurt anymore.
::I can walk upstairs more easily.
::I, you know, I'm stronger. I can do the splits. I can, you know,
::whatever the thing is that they feel, they notice their body changing in positive ways.
::So those two things. And if you're cuing,
::you know, just like the textbook, but those things aren't happening,
::I would say it's like, well, you're
::not actually a good instructor at this point. What are your thoughts?
::Well, yeah, well, my definition of a good instructor is, like, your class is full.
::That's the only way to kind of, like, to validate that, you know,
::because how could you, you know, defend the position that I'm a great instructor
::but I can't split up my classes?
::Like, you know, obviously they don't think that, you know what I mean?
::Well, I think, and I think, you know, and without wanting to really,
::you know, I don't want to offend people here. That's not my intention.
::But I think there is, and I used to have this mindset, there is kind of the
::artist mindset. And I don't say that pejoratively.
::I mean, like I was a musician for decades. And so the artist,
::what I mean by the artist mindset is the mindset that, you know,
::what I'm doing here as a Pilates instructor is, you know, it's craft or it's
::art, you know, it's something creative that comes from within me.
::And I've learned my skills of, you know, I've learned how to cue,
::how to teach, how to program all of these things.
::And then I'm expressing that in a way that expresses myself and my,
::you know, my knowledge and my skills.
::And so it's really like people should appreciate that, you know,
::because of all of the years of training and practice that I've done and the
::skill level that I've developed to, you know, say these cues and whatever.
::And it's sort of, to me, that is the mindset that I used to have when I was
::a musician. It's like, oh, I practice all of these hours and I can play this
::thing that I think is really cool, but no one's buying my CDs.
::You know, this was back when CDs were a thing.
::And, but it's like up and, you know, I flipped my mindset on that.
::And I feel like with regard to the art thing,
::in regard to actual art, you know, like painting and music, I feel like,
::well, if you want people to buy your art, you've got to make art that people want to buy.
::You know, like it's up, it's not up to them to want it, what you make.
::It's up to you to make what they want, you know?
::And I think like, you don't have to make what they want, but if you don't make
::what they want, like, don't get upset when they don't buy it, you know?
::Like, and so I feel like in the Pilates world, we kind of have some of that
::same mindset where people feel like, oh, you know, I've created this beautiful,
::you know, queuing and this beautiful progression and isn't it wonderful,
::but no one appreciates it.
::It's like, well, you're in a service business.
::You know, people pay you money to get stronger, more flexible and have fun,
::you know, and be part of a community. And it's like, well, that's what they
::paid for. You know, did you deliver that?
::You know, if you just want to teach this perfect class, like,
::you know, if you want to paint, you know, some kind of great masterpiece,
::you don't give a shit if people like it or not, fine.
::But don't try and sell it because, like, you know, Paint it,
::stick it up on your own wall, admire it when you walk past it, you know.
::But like if people are paying you money, like if they're paying you money to
::mow their lawn, you've got to mow the lawn.
::You know, it's like we're in a service business.
::Yeah, well, this strikes a chord with me in a way. I just had like a flashback.
::So about a year, 18 months into teaching,
::what I thought was a great instructor was someone
::who knew all the coolest moves so i
::was trying to impress people with how cool my
::moves were and i was trying to impress people with how
::cool my cues were and how like fancy my my words
::were like you know talking about all different muscles and talking in a language
::that people don't really care about you know what i mean like sometimes if you
::go into the depths of like a the explanation of a physio people like what are
::you saying like it doesn't mean anything to me you know so it's easy to go down the path of like.
::Thinking, well, this stuff is, you know, it took me a long time to learn this
::kind of like highly complex movement pattern and all these amazing cues.
::But they're kind of not really going to land with the people that aren't there to learn that stuff.
::You know, like if you're teaching like a course, they're probably going to be
::interesting to other people that have that niche interest.
::Interest but to the general population like they don't
::really want to know um super
::fancy terms you know for muscles or they
::don't really want to know like highly complex movements that they can't really
::do so the after i figured that out that instead of trying to impress people
::with really fancy movements that the things that actually impressed people was
::being able to do everything that I provided and that it felt good.
::So that's shifted the focus to making sure that every time I teach, that I tick those boxes.
::Right. I mean, and I don't necessarily think that this means that,
::you know, everyone should dumb down in quotes their teaching or classes.
::But I think that, you know, if you do know a lot of stuff, well, that's great,
::but that doesn't, that shouldn't manifest as you explaining a lot of stuff,
::using a lot of big fancy words, etc like if
::it should manifest in the clients having fun and getting stronger and
::more flexible and going oh that was awesome you know don't really
::know what we did but you know it was fun and
::i'm getting good at it and i like how i feel now you know and so if you've got
::that knowledge and you can be like a duck you know paddling frantically beneath
::the water but on the surface it's all simple and clear and unruffled well that's
::amazing but but really i feel i mean And I just, I agree with you, Nathan,
::I just don't see how it's defensible to say that a good instructor is anything
::other than somebody who can fill classes.
::You know? Yeah. I mean, you've got to pick exercises which serve the people in front of you.
::So the problem with the fancy stuff is it's usually hard to stabilize because
::it's in like a difficult body position.
::Well, the movement patterns are really complex, so it's hard to coordinate. Yeah.
::So usually exercises like that, they take longer to set up, they take longer
::to start, they're harder to control how quick they fatigue, so you can't do them as long.
::So if you teach a class like that, You end up teaching 30 exercises that last for 40 seconds.
::And by the end of it, everyone's like, I spent more time getting in and out
::of exercise than actually doing something. Right.
::And paradoxically, the more complex and precarious something is,
::often the better it looks on Instagram.
::And so, you know, more and more we're seeing like,
::you know, people who's just genetically gifted, they've got,
::you know, super long, thin legs in a thigh gap, you know, ex-ballet dancers
::and gymnasts, they can roll beautifully with straight legs, et cetera, et cetera.
::And that's what looks amazing on Instagram. And so we all get more of that in
::our algorithm, but then we go and teach a class and those aren't the people in the class.
::You know, we've got like middle-aged moms, we've got, you know,
::just regular people, right?
::And who aren't ballet dancers, who aren't like, you know, size four or whatever,
::and don't have that movement skill or strength or whatever at this point.
::And so what works on Instagram is almost exactly opposite to what works in a
::group class. Agree or disagree?
::Oh, yeah. I couldn't agree more. The problem is, though, that Instagram seems to...
::I'm not sure if it's the algorithm or if it's just people's preferences,
::so I don't know where to point the finger, but I can say from the stuff that
::I post, my general philosophy is that I only want to post things that will work
::in group classes full stop.
::So now there's some things that work better in group classes and they're the
::things that are more simple, but they're the things that don't perform as well on Instagram.
::Lunges, long planks. Yeah, you get drawn into posting stuff,
::which is crazy Yeah, because you know it would get a better response.
::So it's like a weird kind of cycle.
::Otherwise it'd be like, okay, here's day 100 of me posting a plank. You know.
::Because that's, you know, really, really simple stuff that is,
::you know, I mean, the ideal group class exercise is something that is simple.
::And scalable. It's simple so that everyone can get it almost straight away.
::It doesn't matter if they don't know their ass from their elbow,
::they can still like go, oh yeah, hands on the bar, knees on the carriage,
::great, push out, awesome.
::And scalable so you can make it easier or harder very easily by just either
::switching springs up or down or lifting the knees, lowering the knees,
::moving the hands forward, putting the foot bar down a bit, whatever it might be.
::You can adjust the resistance curve from somebody who's very,
::very unfit to somebody who's very fit within the same basic move.
::And so when you apply those two criteria, simple so that everybody can do it
::and scalable so that everybody can do it,
::like you're left with not that many exercises that cleanly fit both of those criteria, right?
::Mm, yep. So you kind of converge on,
::you know, I don't know what the number is, but maybe, you know, 20, 30, 40 exercises.
::That basically, okay, every class is going to be essentially,
::or every great class, and what I mean by a great class is a class where everybody
::walks out of there going, fuck, that was so much fun, and I got an amazing workout, you know.
::Every great class is essentially some combination of those 30 or 40 moves,
::basically, you know, most of which don't do well on the algorithm.
::Yeah, well, that's pretty much it. Yeah.
::So, yeah, what you said then about simple and scalable, like 100%, yes, 100%.
::And the secret to the scalable part is it has to start in the easiest position.
::Yeah, you have to. Because otherwise there's nowhere to go. Right.
::So you can't start, I don't know, three quarters down the way of the scalability
::and then regress everyone.
::Like, what's the point? Like you've got to start at the bottom where it's easiest
::and then provide options which scale the load.
::I see the purpose of movement layers in exercise as the way to scale the load.
::So the only reason I add an extra movement to an exercise is to make it harder
::on the muscle group we're targeting.
::So that's how you control intensity. Right. And so that gets us.
::Let's segue into the next thing I want to talk about here, which is teaching
::a group of 12, or in your studio you have 14. Do you still have 14?
::18. 18. Okay, great.
::So, teaching, let's say, teaching a group of 12 plus. In my studio,
::we had 18. The first studio had 20, the second studio.
::And I know there are some studios around like Virgin, a couple of those bigger
::places that have like 24, 26, you know, in the space.
::But I think there's a lot of, I think a lot of anxiety or skepticism or anxiety.
::Pushback, I'm not sure what the right word is, from people in the Pilates world
::about teaching groups much bigger than like five or six, because they worry
::about safety, they worry about personal attention, they worry about quality.
::And I think that, I've thought about this a lot, and this is essentially what
::Heath and I are going to spend 90% of our waking life thinking about,
::and I know you too, is that when you're teaching a group,
::when I say a group, I mean like 10, 12, 14, you
::know people you have to teach it
::like a group you can't teach the way
::that pilates was traditionally taught like you know 12 one-on-ones
::all at the same time where everybody gets their own modification every
::oh sally you know your wrist hurts so you sit this one out mary
::you do this one sideline instead you know if you
::do that you you just go insane and you
::don't get to get around to each client and every you
::have to run like half a dozen different one-on-one classes all in
::parallel whereas when you teach a group and you
::teach it using what you just described those simple scalable
::moves where everyone starts on the easiest version everybody can
::do that version even sally with their sore wrists and mary who can't do supine
::or whatever it might be you just go great we're not going to do something kneeling
::or supine we're going to do a standing thing or a sitting thing or you know
::whatever it might be and then you just go great what's the easiest version of this. Okay.
::Slightly harder version, slightly harder version, slightly harder version.
::Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Keep cranking it up until everybody's like,
::okay, that's my limit. Okay, great. Okay.
::Switch positions. Let's do another
::one. Same, same, but in a different position. And so when you do that.
::You get is you massively reduce
::the cognitive load on the instructor because you're not
::running half a dozen simultaneous like different you know
::programs in your head you're not trying to you know cue someone who's pregnant
::in one exercise and someone who's you know doing lunges or whatever in a different
::exercise you're you so you have much more bandwidth so you can actually spend
::more time individually focusing on each client and you can walk around and go
::mary great just move your foot a little bit to the right yeah can you feel that
::a bit more here fantastic,
::Or, you know, Sally, I think you need another spring here. You're looking so strong. Bam.
::So you can do more of that stuff, which paradoxically actually gives people
::the experience of more personal attention.
::And you're not rushing around the studio, like chasing your tail,
::running after people to try and modify because they're doing it wrong or whatever,
::because they can't, you know, they don't have the strength or whatever.
::So paradoxically, when you teach a larger group, if you use simple,
::scalable exercises and start with the easiest possible version and then layer
::it up in terms of adding load to the primary muscles that are doing the movement,
::you actually get to spend more time one-on-one with each person than if you're
::teaching the old way where basically everybody gets their own individual modifications.
::So, what do you think is the, you know, what's the bridge or what's the missing
::ingredient for people out there who are, you know,
::skeptical about teaching, you know, 10, 12, 14, 18 people in a group?
::I mean, all right, you train instructors in your studio.
::I'm guessing most of them, probably all of them, have never taught 18 people
::before in one group, right? So how do you take them from like,
::oh, I could never teach more than six people to like, oh, yeah, 18, no problem?
::So the thing is that that personal limitation of only teaching six people only
::exists if that's all you've ever seen.
::So if you're a client...
::In a studio with 18 reformers and
::week in week out you're doing classes and all
::of a sudden you decide to become an instructor there it's not going to be like some
::kind of crazy hurdle it's like it's just what it is yeah yeah the
::only reason the only problems that exist in group classes are the ones
::that we create for ourselves and that's because we're trying to
::use systems which don't work in that environment and that's
::the spent the last couple years really trying
::to figure out the best way to articulate these ideas but
::the idea i think at the moment is if
::you're trying to create a group reformer class
::system based purely on
::pilates methodology it doesn't work because the systems that require the thing
::that makes group reformer work is loading you have to understand loading you
::have to understand progressive overload you have to understand target muscle
::groups that isn't in pilates methodology it's not in the systems so,
::there's like that disconnect there means that you're never
::really going to get there like uh that's why people feel so stressed that's
::why they feel like such a roadblock because everything they've learned hasn't
::equipped them for this environment this environment you know joseph wasn't teaching
::18 people at once on 18 reformers not on 18 reformers but there's quite a bit
::of footage of him teaching like 15,
::20 people at once on mat at Jacob's Pillow.
::So like he wasn't against teaching large groups, quite the contrary. Yeah.
::Yeah, well, that's right. But he did, you know, the methods that people kind
::of share of his aren't designed to teach 18 people at once on 18 reformers.
::Like that's the point that I'm making is that to be successful in that environment,
::you have to optimize for that. You can't try and take other things and try and make them work.
::It has to be like the key to make that system work is you have to be able to,
::simplify the information so much that it's effortless and it's easy to understand.
::So you have to be able to get people moving.
::You have to be able to start exercises with the least amount of effort.
::So that means you have to pick body positions, which are super simple and easy to start.
::You have to be able to have exercise duration, which goes for around three minutes
::to give you enough time to be able to add in movement layers, which make it harder.
::And then you have to be able to guarantee every person is working the master
::group you intended so you have to understand.
::How everybody's experiences the spring tension is relative to their body.
::People with more mass or less mass, how that feels. You have to understand if
::they've got longer limbs or shorter limbs, if they're stretching the springs
::more or less, how that would change it.
::And also where they're positioned, like if the foot bar's up or down a few rungs
::or if their foot's a bit further out along the carriage or a bit further along
::the floor towards the pulleys or whatever it might be. All of that changes the spring tension.
::That's right. So you have to have a masterful, a real comprehensive understanding
::of how the springs work and how they work in relation to the human body,
::and that will give you the ability to intuitively understand everyone's experience
::based on watching their speed of movement and range of motion.
::You just look at them and you can tell exactly what they're feeling and then
::you know if that's what you want it to be.
::I'll tell you something that you said there that kind of made me think.
::Um something that i think
::is a just a i think is a really
::big reason for this divide in pilates between like people who teach i guess
::what you'd call progressive strength-based reformer or fitness-based reformer
::or you know however you want to call it versus the people who teach uh more
::traditional whether it's contemporary or classical or whatever.
::Is this idea of load and you
::know what you said about you know you have to add load to the
::target muscle to increase the challenge and it's like well coming from myself
::coming from an exercise science exercise physiology background that's like yeah
::blindingly obvious it's like thing number one they teach you in exercise science
::is you've got to load the target muscle groups you know to the point of near
::fatigue if you want to get stronger like that's like,
::thing they, day one, you know, that's what they teach you.
::Um, and yet in, in Pilates by and large, you know, overall, I would say there's a lot of,
::there's a lot of people, there's a widespread misunderstanding of that concept.
::Like I see a lot, you know, statements to the effect of, you know,
::strength doesn't come from adding load. It comes from control and proper muscle activation, you know.
::Or, you know, the way to, you know, like if you add load to a movement that
::is, you know, where form is not perfect, you know, you're just asking for an
::injury to happen, you know.
::Um or even that the point
::of pilates is not to get stronger you know
::it's to it's to move better which i just think like
::well what the fuck does that mean it's like
::how can you move better if you're not stronger you know like what does it mean
::to move better like doesn't it mean to move more easily all right so probably
::having more range of motion would make you move better and having more strength
::available through that range of motion would make, you know,
::like if you're stronger and more flexible,
::like, wouldn't that make you move better? Like how else can you move better?
::Like, you know, if you're stiff and weak, like how can you move well? You know?
::Um, so yeah, I guess, I mean, I know that, I know that we're in furious agreement
::on this point, but I guess,
::you know, I guess I'm interested in your perspective on this Cause I know that
::you see it and you give a lot of workshops and I imagine you've had every kind
::of like pushback under the, you know,
::on God's green earth about this topic.
::Yeah. So how do you, how do you respond? Yeah.
::Well, the thing is, I always like to start my workshops with things that are
::objectively true, which is springs have load. The load is progressive.
::You can equate the load to kilograms.
::And what that means is if you're in a body position with a spring tension,
::in order for you to move, muscles have to contract. So there's going to be a
::prime mover which makes a movement happen.
::You can't argue against that. That's just how it works. so anything after that
::is arguments based on how it should be air quotes and that doesn't interest
::me like it is what it is like in order for these movements to happen,
::then there's muscle groups involved
::and it's just about what you're trying to do from that point on so.
::I'm not going to these workshops saying hey everyone,
::you know i'm here to teach you pilates i'm saying hey everyone i'm here
::to teach you my method which is designed to be optimizing group
::reformer classes of 18 people plus you know so that's
::people are coming and interested in my methods because you
::know it makes it more profitable as a studio if you have more people in there
::so the only thing that's holding you back is being able to train them really
::well so they want to come back if you know how to do that then you know how
::many studios you want to open so the that's the only thing i'm interested in
::like not to be disrespectful to everyone else but I'm not sure why everyone else.
::Thinks that I care about a different point of view as much I don't really I
::appreciate everyone has their own point of view but don't,
::waste the time trying to convince me that it should be a different way because
::all I'm trying to do is optimize this specific environment
::to get this result so in this space this
::is what I'm doing and it doesn't bother me
::that everyone has a different methodology or a different belief system because what
::they do doesn't work in the space that i'm in so if
::it did i'd be doing it so um that's what
::i care about so um you know the
::these arguments and discussions will rage on for
::eternity and that's fine like it doesn't really bother me but what
::you know what interests me is if i'm training
::these people in front of me it's my responsibility to make sure they get the
::best experience and if you control those things the load the body positions
::you're intentional it's simple with information you get really good outcomes
::and um that's the secret really to making it work so yeah i don't know.
::It kind of always gets me fired up because sometimes people come in real hot
::and heavy with this emotion.
::Oh, this and that. It shouldn't be like this. It shouldn't be like that.
::But when I'm looking at trying to get results for people, it's not based on
::how someone else did it in the past. It's like, what am I doing right now to
::get this result for this person right now?
::So if there's a strategy that was used previously by someone else and I come
::across it and it works better than what I'm doing, I will use that instead.
::So I'm always seeking out information to improve the strategies that I currently have.
::And that's been my kind of way of improving over time.
::So I'm not going to not listen to other people, but if it doesn't work in the
::environment that I care about, then it's not that important to me.
::I think it's also, but it also just doesn't work in any environment because
::if you want to get stronger, you know, the laws of physics and the way the human
::physiology works is such that you have to progressively increase load.
::Like there's just no other way to get stronger and so
::regardless of whether you're teaching a bespoke kind of one-on-one or
::small group environment and you teach only the original pilates method
::or whether you're teaching you know 18 or 20 group reformer
::you know with dumbbells and all the rest of it it's like well if you want your
::clients to get stronger which i mean i presume that's one of the main reasons
::people come to pilates is they want to you know feel stronger more flexible
::in their bodies is like well you're gonna have to figure out how to progressively
::add load if you want that to happen, right?
::And so in strength-based reformer, we can add more springs, we can take more
::springs off, we can add dumbbells, you know, there's a whole bunch of ways we
::can, you know, we can change body position, et cetera.
::In a more traditional Pilates, well, you can lengthen the lever of the legs,
::you can add, you know, challenge, you can go to a harder version of the same
::move, you know, there's lots of ways you can add it.
::Now, I think it's easier by and large to add it in smaller increments on a reformer,
::and that's one of the things that's awesome about the reformer,
::but even if you're teaching on a chair or, you know, mat or whatever it might
::be, and if you're teaching just using the traditional moves, it's like, well,
::there's like eight versions of teaser in Pilates, you know, so just pick one
::that the client can mostly do, right? But it's hard for them.
::And then like do that until they can't do it anymore. And then come back next
::week and do a slightly harder version. It's like, you know, it's basically the same process.
::And you can't avoid human physiology. It doesn't matter what your philosophical underpinnings are.
::And I don't know exactly how Joseph progressed people, you know.
::But, you know, I've read a lot about his way of teaching and I've looked at,
::you know, so much archival video and text footage and whatever.
::And I think that the system he built is basically designed to progress people
::to make them stronger and more flexible.
::And that's why you've got like baby versions of a lot of the exercises and super
::difficult versions of the same move and like five different versions in between
::on different apparatus.
::It's so that you can go, okay, great. You're good at the hundred on the mat now.
::Great. Let's go and do it on the reformer. It's a bit harder,
::you know, add a bit more load, crack, work on a couple more springs.
::You know, it's like, it's the same. Okay. You're good at the hundred.
::Great. Let's do the teaser now. That's even harder.
::So basically you can, you can use your knowledge of the, of the system to add
::load, but it's It's like, if we don't agree that adding load is what we've got to do,
::then I think we're misunderstanding just the whole point of the exercise here.
::Yeah, I mean, for someone who was a bodybuilder, I mean, he obviously understood load.
::So I don't see how he could create a system completely like separated from that.
::But it's like there's a, you know, I don't mind discussions about,
::you know, trying to understand other people's point of view.
::But at the end of the day, the thing I care about the most is the people that
::I've got in front of me and guaranteeing they get results.
::And I'm not too concerned about trying to be another version of someone else.
::Like I don't really want to have a career that is, you know,
::following another person really.
::I kind of just want to purely achieve one thing, which is to optimize the experience in this setting.
::You know, 18 reformers plus, absolutely nailing that.
::To me, that's the thing I find the most exciting because when you do nail that,
::The feeling of teaching that many people at once, it's like playing in a football
::stadium full of like 100,000 people.
::It's just – put music in there. It's just amazing, absolutely epic.
::And then you get the results from the clients. It's just addictive.
::To teach in an environment like that is just so exciting.
::What's your observation? Because you started out with – I think you started
::with 14 at North Melbourne there. Is that right, the reformers?
::I started with 16. Okay.
::16, yep. And I know you've taught in a lot of places where there were 10 or 12, you know.
::So what's your observation of,
::you know, going from that kind of 10 to 12 to 16 to 18 in terms of,
::are there any differences in how you have to operate or is it just a higher
::level of skill in the same thing, in your opinion?
::You have to have.
::A system of observation you
::have to put yourself in a body position where you can see everybody and you
::have to spend time observing so you actually spend more time watching than you
::do talking because you need to see what's happening in order for you to be effective
::with what you say so in a smaller group it's really easy just to kind of say whatever you want to say,
::and because it's a smaller space you can kind of just get around to fix people
::but in a bigger group you actually have to know exactly what everyone's doing
::before you start talking about what happens next because if i try and give everyone
::a progression in loading.
::But half the people can't even do what i've just given them
::anyway then it's absolute disaster in there you know what i
::mean so their awareness levels that's the
::thing that really kind of takes time to develop a
::new instructor usually they're so preoccupied by
::the systems and memorizing them and learning
::them it takes away the bandwidth to actually see they
::literally cannot see you like to be walking past
::someone who's on the wrong spring just can't see
::it you know they walk past someone in the wrong body position can't
::see it so a big part of like when i train trainers is
::to help them see these things so i'll be in the room with them and
::sometimes i might kind of wave them over and say hey look see that
::over there see that over there it's like oh yeah oh it and they
::go and fix it you do that like 10 20 times and
::after a while they start to anticipate what it is that they're looking for that's
::not right so the yeah when i train trainers i really that's the thing i want
::to build in them i want to build that um deep understanding what every exercise
::is so when i teach them an exercise we'll go through everything you know the setup,
::so name springs crops body position move we'll look at the different movement
::layers you can add to it um and then we'll look at how to finish it we'll talk
::about target muscle groups we'll talk about um.
::You know these strategies and how you control intensity you can talk about the
::things the next thing i'll talk about is what you can expect will go wrong this
::is going to happen someone's going to be here instead of here someone's going
::to be on the wrong spring someone's going to be,
::moving like this if you see this you need to change that so i'm going to give
::them like a list of things to look for to fix the problems which will happen based on just,
::you know a big group of people you say one thing and it gets interpreted different
::ways So all of a sudden now, it's not just they're teaching an exercise.
::They actually understand what they're trying to do. They can articulate the goal of the exercise.
::And now they understand what it also isn't. So if something isn't right, they know how to fix it.
::So that gives them this real, this kind of internal confidence when they teach,
::that it's not just I'm here to teach an exercise.
::It's like I actually know exactly what is happening. I think that's something
::that's really lacking from most Polite's education.
::It was certainly lacking from when I learned that, you know,
::knowing what the exercise is actually for, like which muscles it's,
::you're strengthening or stretching or whatever.
::You know, and we were taught like a list of muscles that are quite,
::you know, activated by the move, but it's like, okay, there's like 50 muscles
::on this list here, but they can't all be getting strengthened by this move, you know?
::And so knowing what an exercise is for really makes it super obvious what you
::should correct and what's not worth correcting about that move.
::Like if an exercise is for your, let's say abs, right?
::Well, if the client's doing something that is like, okay, their foot's facing
::the wrong way or whatever, but it's like, that doesn't affect the load on the
::abs. It's like, it doesn't really matter, right?
::But if they're in a position or with a spring setting that's,
::that is interfering with the ability to actually load the abs,
::well, that does matter, you know, cause that's what the exercise is for.
::So once you understand what the exercise is
::for it becomes easy to to
::pinpoint okay here are the five things that can go wrong here because that
::offloads the target muscle or overloads it or whatever whereas you know oh should
::i worry if their toes are pointing the wrong way should i worry if their knees
::are locked or not should i worry if their head's here or there it's like yeah
::most of the times those things are just distractions from the actual true purpose
::of the exercise but if you if you don't know what the exercise is for because
::all you've got is like you know.
::69 muscles on your list of target, you know, muscles. It's like,
::if it's for everything, it's for nothing basically.
::So you have to know like, yeah, this one's for your abs. This one's for your
::glutes. This one's for your quads. This one, you know, this one's for hip extension.
::This one's for spinal mobility, whatever it might be. And it's like,
::okay, well, is there a cue that will increase this person's spinal mobility
::in this move? If so, that's the one I should use.
::And I shouldn't worry about which way their toes are pointing or whatever,
::if that's not the point of move. Yeah.
::Yeah, having a pure focus of what every exercise is designed for.
::It also helps with class planning because if you're trying to create a full-body
::workout, you have to know what the prime movement is in every exercise.
::Right. So otherwise, you're going to accidentally create a class which is 70%
::glutes or something like that.
::So you have to be able to kind of break it down. This is surprising.
::Like I saw, and shout out to the Pilates snob because I think we disagree on a lot of stuff.
::I'm pretty sure she doesn't listen to this podcast, but if you do, respect.
::We disagree on a lot of stuff, but there's some stuff I agree with her on.
::But this is one thing that I disagreed with her on, that she did a post saying,
::like, oh, someone's doing this, like, basically a tuck on the reformer, hands on the carriage,
::feet on the foot bar, and then, like, pulling the carriage in on a light spring
::sort of thing, and saying, like, oh, well, you can do that on the chair,
::when you're standing on the chair and pushing the paddle down.
::But, like, what she missed was, like, well, the resistance is coming from the opposite direction.
::So one's about abs and hip flexors, the other one's about glutes and adductors, right?
::And it's like, okay, it's the same movement, hip flexion extension.
::Okay, but it's like, it's a different exercise because you're targeting the
::exact opposite muscle group.
::And I think that's something a lot of people get super confused about in Pilates
::is going, okay, this movement looks like this other movement,
::but the resistance is coming from
::the opposite direction, therefore it is actually not the same exercise.
::Oh, my God. The amount of times I'll train someone and they don't know the difference
::between push and pull because technically the movement is the same, right?
::You know, the arms are moving in and out, but one is you're working against
::the load and it's obviously then a different outcome on the body,
::different muscle groups.
::You know, one is the effort of pushing away from the body. One is the effort
::of bringing it in towards the body.
::Like, it's something as simple as that. If you don't know the difference in
::that and you're trying to teach group to form a class, it's going to be a disaster
::because you have to understand that.
::That's real simple. The difference between a chest press and a shoulder press,
::the amount of people that don't understand that, crazy.
::So the most basic, simple things like that, terminology, you have to understand
::that to be able to be effective in this space.
::What you were saying before, I remember we had chats in the past,
::you know, we were kind of going, you had an experience, I think,
::with the Stop Pilates training back in the day and uh.
::So you're asking the instructor of instructors how this exercise targets the
::hamstrings, but they're unable to kind of explain it.
::Like that is zeroing in on the problem.
::You know what I mean? Like if fundamentally there's a lack of understanding,
::you know, even in high places in these institutions, then it has a flow-on effect
::to everyone else, you know.
::So this kind of simplicity and it's important.
::You have to understand these things you can't just uh discount
::or discredit the effect of an exercise and
::just kind of have like
::magical thinking that it will just be okay like it's not going
::to just be okay you know you need to know exactly what's going on
::yeah this has been
::a great conversation i look forward to our to
::our next one what um what are
::you you know what's your main focus these days because you're kind of
::like a real polymath you know you've got your you do your
::workshops around the world you've got your studio business you
::have a training like course that
::we teach instructors like so you know what do you how do you spend your time
::these days and what's on what's on the cards for you on the next month or two
::um well i've got some big trips coming up i'm back to the us and i'm going to
::come back to the uk uh slash europe in november um.
::Yeah, I've been working with a training organization to create an instructor
::training course which is kind
::of a new pathway in the sense that it's not going to be based on Pilates'
::methodology or adhering to any kind of traditional systems.
::It's going to be purely based on my methodology and my systems and still provide
::people the accreditation required to teach group performer. And it's going to be worldwide.
::So that's going to be a big thing I'm ticking off.
::And potentially movement in the ownership space, potentially going to either
::be selling or buying a studio at North Melbourne. So it's going to be a big year.
::And, yeah, there's a lot of exciting things. I suppose if you look at day-to-day,
::I'm kind of getting back into the content creation stuff a lot more now.
::I'm working on my podcast, kind of branching out to speak to a lot more people
::that I even have never personally met before, just interested in their message.
::So I'm probably going to be, especially on these trips overseas,
::trying to speak to as many people as possible.
::But I don't know. I also feel like a little bit of intensity.
::Intensity in the sense that let's just do as much as possible now,
::like just get out there and do it.
::I know in the past they kind of went through different periods where I was like,
::you know, like I'll get around to it one day.
::But honestly now I just feel like I've got my foot down, like let's go.
::Like I don't even care if it fails. Honestly, I just want to do everything.
::So I feel pretty pumped up right now.
::I can't wait to see how the year pans out for you.
::Like, yeah, I've got a lot of respect for you, Nathan. I really enjoy our conversations
::and I'm glad to call you a friend. And I think you're doing great things in the industry, mate.
::Oh, thanks, Raph. I appreciate it, mate. Appreciate your time.
::And, yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity as always. Likewise. See you soon.
