Episode 329
329. Boundaries protect culture - with Alison Ward of Pilates Process Vancouver
Pilates Process Vancouver co-owner Alison Ward shares how clear boundaries protect studio culture, staff morale, and client respect.
We dive into setting policies, holding firm under pressure, and why saying no can actually grow your business.
Find Pilates Process Vancouver here: https://www.pilatesprocessvancouver.ca/
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
AdBarker - https://adbarker.com/privacy
Transcript
WEBVTT
::Welcome to Pilates Elephants. I'm your host, Raphael Bender.
::I'm here with Alison Ward from Pilates Process, Vancouver, British Columbia,
::Canada. Alison, welcome.
::Thank you. Great to be here with you. I'm looking forward to learning about
::your studio and I've got a bunch of questions I want to ask about your business.
::Just before we dive in, could you briefly introduce yourself to the Pilates stratosphere?
::Yeah, my name is Alison Ward. I'm coming up on 20 years of teaching,
::so that makes me feel a little bit middle-aged by saying that.
::I started years ago in dance and then in theater and then made my way towards
::Pilates and later opened up a studio with Tiffany Johns, my business partner.
::And yeah, it's just been kind of going ever since. Yeah.
::So tell me about your, you know, the general outline of your studio.
::Actually, you're in BC and I noticed you're on Broadway, is that right?
::Yeah, we're on East Broadway. Yeah, I lived in Vancouver as a kid when I was
::12 years old for a while and for a few months.
::And I remember vividly catching a bus up Broadway. There was an army surplus
::store I was obsessed with when I was 12 there.
::Um yeah so uh just so yeah just
::tell us about the sort of the 10 000 foot view of
::your business like you know what do you do who do
::you serve yeah so we're i mean i
::guess we would fall into like the boutique uh category we have
::uh capacity for six person group classes um and we also do a lot of private
::sessions we definitely view pilates through a therapeutic lens so we kind of
::use the Pilates modality to serve each individual sort of class or person or body that comes in.
::Oh, I lost my little light. Okay. Well, you can see half my face.
::And we also specialize in teacher training. So we do courses and teach teachers how to teach.
::Yeah. Right. And so how is the, from a business standpoint, what is the split
::between teacher training and retail Pilates? Yeah, that's a good question.
::So the teacher training kind of lives in its own category.
::We kind of promote it separately, although sometimes some of our daily clients
::decide they then want to do teacher training, but it does feel like its own entity.
::Um we run courses we try to run one of each course a year and then we'll also
::do um the past three years we've done an off-site course or courses out of a
::affiliate studio in alberta british columbia or alberta british columbia alberta canada as well yeah.
::I've lost your audio here. My apologies. That was my bad. There you are.
::So I'm really keen to dive into some of the stuff around your partnership and
::how that works and why you chose to do that.
::But before we get there, I'd like to just uncover a little bit more about just
::kind of the day-to-day running of the studio.
::And so you have a model. You have six people in an equipment class.
::You do Reformers with Towers. Is that right?
::Yeah, that's correct. And then
::it looks like you also do a large amount of duets and private lessons.
::So what's the mix between those things? And you've got a sizable team of five
::or six instructors working for you there as well.
::Yeah, I think we have eight now. Right, yeah. So what's the mix between the
::group classes, duets, and privates to begin? Let's start there.
::Yeah, so both Tiffany and I actually kind of came up in studios that were more
::heavy on the private sessions where you would have like those more affluent
::clients that were coming in like three times a week for a one-on-one session,
::which is fabulous for a business.
::And then we decided to open a studio in East Vancouver, which is an up-and-coming
::neighborhood. And there's definitely folks there that can afford to come to
::a few group classes a week.
::There's the occasional person who can come in for those private sessions.
::But we found that people were really drawn to the groups like
::when we opened they were more drawn to the group sessions so we definitely prioritize
::those on the schedule as much as we can um we
::found that our group sessions grew a lot more rapidly
::than our private sessions so we'll kind of
::have that like prime times in the morning and in the evenings that
::that main studio space is reserved for the
::groups um and then the hope is
::that we're also running a private session in our little backspace at the
::same time like that's sort of the ideal situation and
::then private sessions kind of filtered out through the
::day when there are not large group classes happening and what percentage of
::your revenue comes from groups as opposed to private slash duets i'd have to
::just make a guess on this i we have this wonderful um bookkeeper accounting fellow called jacob who.
::So he just, you know, he takes care of kind of keeping track of all of that.
::And we have a couple of meetings with him a year. And so my numbers brain isn't
::great, but I would guess that I'd say at least like over 50% is our group classes
::and less than 50% is our privates.
::I'd love to see that shift more.
::You'd like it to be more group or more privates?
::I would love to fill our private slots. Like right now our groups are very popular
::and they're easy to fill.
::And I find that our private sessions have been a slower burn since we opened the studio. Uh-huh.
::And so I see that your intro packs that you sell all include private sessions.
::So you can do a private session and a bunch of group classes or you can do three private sessions.
::And those are the two intro offers. Is that – did I understand that? Yeah.
::Yeah. So tell me about your induction process and, like, do you have a sales
::process or, you know, do you try and nudge people one way or the other when
::they get started with you?
::Yeah. I mean, I always say that I'm not a salesperson, but I've always been
::able to sell Pilates because I believe in it.
::But we also don't want people who can't afford to take private sessions to get
::kind of financially burnt out coming into privates and then lose them as a group
::client. Like, we'd rather keep them.
::So, I mean, the ideal is that they come and take their three private sessions
::and then they continue on with privates as they are also filtering into groups.
::I mean, that's kind of where the client gets the best result as well.
::However, a lot of people, they're just not interested in one-on-one.
::So they'll be like, great, I'll take that first private intro and then I want
::to go straight to groups and we let them do that.
::And so was that, did you start with the three private intro and then kind of
::introduce the one private few group intro as kind of like in response to demand?
::I think so. That's a good question. I think it was kind of like,
::okay, we started actually with just an intro, like a reduced rate intro session.
::And then I know that there's a lot of studios like, you know,
::10 years ago that it was like, you have to take the five, you have to take five privates.
::And so we kind of looked at that model, but we're like, you know what,
::our demographic, we're not going to keep people if we kind of push that.
::So that's where we kind of came up with the hybrid. You can either take same
::price, you can do three private sessions. or you can do one private session
::and then get a five group pack.
::And where do you get new clients from? Like how do people find you?
::A lot of our clients are actually walk-bys, so they're local to the neighborhood.
::And we get clients word of mouth through physio clinics and like personal training
::and chiropractors and massage therapists that we have relationships with.
::And then we also get people who are searching like Google reviews.
::Um instagram is kind
::of like we get people for teacher training from instagram
::but we don't really get we don't really get um
::like our weekly daily clients from instagram yeah that tracks with my experience
::i think people who follow pilates people on like pilates studios and educators
::on instagram are pilates instructors or people who are or people who are already
::fanatically you know into Pilates.
::Yeah. Um, you opened in 2019 is correct. That's correct. Yeah.
::Just in time for COVID. Yeah. Oh my God.
::How did, how did you get through that? Um, well one, we didn't have a choice.
::Like we were, you know, we, we put our, you know, we, uh, invested in the studio.
::We had our startup loans.
::So it was kind of like declare bankruptcy or figure out how to keep the studio open.
::Um, we, um.
::We just kind of rolled up our sleeves. We had a few other instructors at the
::time because we were new.
::So in Canada, we had different programs for like short periods of time.
::So we told our teachers just to take that unemployment money from the government.
::And Tiffany and I started doing online sessions immediately.
::We are lucky. My father is a retired chartered accountant.
::And he kind of was like, you know what, I'm going to research.
::Basically, he took the time to research any loan or program that we could take advantage of.
::So we didn't have to do all of that legwork on our own while we were also teaching
::and pivoting every few weeks to a month because the government kept changing
::what you were allowed to do, what you weren't allowed to do.
::So we had all online, then we did an online and private sessions only,
::and then we did online and duet sessions and private sessions.
::One thing I'm really proud of is that we did make it through the pandemic.
::We also really centered our clients and our instructors'
::well-being, and we noticed other businesses around us were still charging the
::exact same rate for, say, an online private session as they were for an in-person
::session, and we didn't do that.
::Like I know that we needed the money, but we reduced our rates for online privates.
::And then we also reduced our rates for, you know, duet sessions once people were allowed to do that.
::And I think our clients really appreciated that. And we built a really strong
::relationship with our clients through that time. And then we're able to,
::you know, bring our rates back to normal once we could actually offer what we were offering before.
::So, yeah. um post i
::mean 2019 you would have just beaten the viral growth of group reformer pilates
::i think you probably would have
::been my guess is like one of the early studios in your area after covid.
::Pilates studio started popping up you know
::on every street corner yeah how how
::has that increased kind of market saturation
::impacted your business and and what what what
::if anything have you done to
::adjust course and differentiate yourself as as
::pilates is just totally trending right now
::yeah it's it's one of those things it's always
::like you know if you're on instagram too long it freaks you out because you're
::like oh god like oh no like what are we going to do how are we going to compete
::with this trendy thing and like these you know American studios that are coming
::up into Vancouver they have all this money to have these like gorgeous expensive spaces um,
::and you know like they're fitness based a lot of them um and we're trying to
::really like stick to our integrity and our training and our expertise.
::So, you know, I think the number one thing is don't panic.
::It's just like, okay, chill out. What do we offer?
::We did originally have four machines. And that was kind of standard when we
::opened the studios to have four machines for an equipment class.
::And we decided to get a fifth machine once we, you know, after the pandemic, we got a fifth machine.
::And then about a year later, I'm like, we need a sixth machine.
::And, you know, these other studios, they're packing 12, 15 plus reformers in there.
::We're still able to teach well with six people.
::You know, we're still offering a boutique experience, even though what we're
::used to is, you know, the four machines. But we also just have to go with what people can afford.
::You know, we wouldn't be able to, we'd have to up our prices even more and what we can offer.
::So we jumped up the number of machines from four to six.
::Um we definitely have leaned into our teacher training it's something that we
::have that has a really great reputation uh the method that we teach under and
::just staying true to what we do and continuing with those personal community
::relationships and making sure that what we're,
::providing is high quality you know i mean i think we've definitely i think there
::was a point where we saw a little bit of a dip when a few other studios popped
::into town when people were kind of trying everything.
::But we're not, you know, we're not a trendy fitness business.
::And I think studios that are trends will, you know, they'll, they'll do what they do.
::And then the next, you know, in five years, there'll be a spin studio.
::And in five years, there'll be a, I don't know, a bungee cord,
::gymnastics studio or whatever the next thing is. Do you know what I mean?
::Yeah, I totally agree. I think when you jump on the latest thing,
::you get more clients in the short term, but then those clients go on to whatever
::the next latest thing is because if you get people who want the latest thing.
::They're just going to move on to the next latest thing.
::And I think I 100% agree, your best strategy to
::differentiate yourself is just be clear on who you serve and what you do and who you
::don't serve and what you don't do and just really really get
::good at doing the one thing that you're really good
::at yeah um what is
::the did you put your prices down when you
::increased the the reformer reformers up
::to six didn't what we did is we we kept them steady because we we also just
::looked at what other studios were charging um and we made sure that we were
::competitive but we also don't want to be the cheapest ticket in town because
::our teachers are really very well trained like the the quality of our instruction is really high.
::But what we do whenever we see ourselves like leaning into an increase is we've
::started offering loyalty packs to our existing clients.
::So we'll offer like a really great deal to our clients who already are in the
::studio to buy a couple of, you know, class packs with and they get like an extra
::two free classes on that or they get a reduced rate.
::So we've started doing that a couple of times a year to honor the clients that
::we have, while still taking a look and going like, well, you know,
::the studio over here with X amount of machines is charging this much.
::And I know for sure that their teachers don't have the experience that our teachers have.
::So it makes no sense to kind of lowball ourselves like that.
::How did you manage the transition from four to five to six? Was there any friction
::with your existing clients? We had a few.
::We always have a few little squeaky wheels, but neither Tiffany and I are into.
::Catering to the high maintenance client.
::I mean, we have some high maintenance clients. I love them. They're lovely people,
::but people will, you know, complain, and it's like, you know what, you're still getting.
::You're still getting the same quality of instruction. I might joke with clients
::and say, listen, you know, like when you first opened, you were getting a private
::session for the price of a group class.
::So let's just, you know, let's just call this even here, you know,
::like you're, and if people are unhappy, they can go look somewhere else,
::but I think most of them will come back.
::Okay. I think we just uncovered a superpower here, which is that I don't know
::the percentage, but if I had to guess, I would say it's nine out of 10.
::Pilates studio owners really struggle with having boundary conversations with clients,
::sounds like that's that you've you've you've
::solved that or that's not a thing for you yeah I'm a boundaries guy like I'm
::like boundaries boundaries boundaries like I've worked on them throughout my
::life but that's something I feel it's it's still not completely easy but it's
::something I know is important and at the end of the day um we're willing to
::lose one client to keep five clients.
::So if you have someone who's a troublemaker, who's constantly complaining,
::they're creating a lot of work for our administrative staff.
::Sometimes they'll be creating drama within a group class. And I've seen this
::over the years working at other studios before I opened my own.
::And, you know, frankly, I don't want to live like that. I don't want our teachers
::to have to deal with that.
::I don't want our clients to have to deal with, you know, that or to create that
::kind of culture where every complaint is catered to.
::Not to say it's perfect. We still occasionally have things we need to deal with,
::but any time we come up with a challenging situation.
::Interpersonal issue we usually
::go back to the drawing board and go okay where what are our policies here
::and are they airtight and are they clear and how
::can we make them clear and how can we put them out there so that this is addressed
::beforehand and if it's not if it if it is addressed and they're still complaining
::we can go like well if you saw the signature on our email and the multiple documents
::that you signed and the you know text on our website and all of these policies that are in place,
::like that's, that's our policy, you know?
::Were you always like that or did you have to figure that out and learn it?
::I think I learned it. I think I grew up with a mother who owned a dance studio.
::And I remember, you know, it being dinner time and some parents,
::you know, calling the house at dinner time.
::And I remember my mom, seeing my mom start to set boundaries with people.
::And even when she set boundaries, like she still wasn't sending as many boundaries as I
::as i said because i just saw it take over like it was
::our whole family's life you know at first the dance studio was
::in the basement and then it wasn't in the basement but people felt
::like they had access they felt like they could just have access to my mom at
::all all hours any day and so she's i saw her setting starting to set boundaries
::she's a pretty strong woman um and i learned from that but then i also learned
::from seeing working at studios that where they didn't set boundaries or they
::catered to the clients and then the teachers were unhappy,
::you know, and then you lose your good teachers, you know, if your teachers don't feel respected.
::So it kind of... And was that a struggle for you? Did you have to overcome any
::fear of confrontation or that kind of thing?
::Yeah. How did you do it? Yeah. I'm an actor.
::I am an actor. I went to theater school. I have acting training and I think
::I, um, I just, you fake it till you make it, man.
::Like there's times where I'm, you know, you're feeling shaky on the inside or
::emotional on the inside.
::Um, and you just have to breathe and be like, how do I want to behave in this?
::And if the, in this instance, I want to be kind, you know, I want to be clear.
::Um but i'm also not going to back down so that i'm more liked in the moment and that,
::i know that i've been told i come across as like confident and calm,
::but i'm like that's acting training you guys like sometimes i am confident and
::calm but when i'm not i just i i know how to you know just chill breathe like
::clearly speak um that's it's a trick,
::you've got all right so you've just you've got your strategy of like you very
::clearly communicate your policies in multiple places, and then you play the
::part of somebody who's good at having those conversations.
::Something I've found really worked for me, or still does work,
::is basically just when somebody questions the policies, just say,
::hey, look, we have to have one rule for everybody and we have to enforce it
::equally for everybody, otherwise it's not fair, and just literally repeating
::that every time they come back.
::Do you have any kind of life hacks that you use that you found that that work particularly well.
::That's a good question I think yes you know like a lot of the wording is so
::that it's fair for everybody in the studio so everyone has equal opportunity
::to classes that sort of thing so that our teachers our wonderful instructors
::can get fairly paid you know if somebody's looking for you know freebies or
::things like that um so yeah just as like as you said like,
::reiterating the fairness amongst like a we're a small business you know I don't
::want to be like like, oh, we're a small business, give us charity.
::It's like, no, but we're a small business. We want to provide this for you.
::This is how we can provide it for you. If we allow all of these exceptions or
::allow people to push, we're not going to be able to afford, you know,
::these fantastic instructors.
::We're not going to be able to afford this great space or to offer as many group
::classes, that sort of thing.
::So just as you said, like, and I think people, they don't, they just don't understand.
::Like, I don't think they're bad people. They just maybe, they've never run a
::business. They've never worked in customer service.
::They, they're just like why can't I don't understand like they don't
::understand that their money isn't just going to the teacher
::it's going to the rent it's going to the lease it's
::going to paying off the the loan that we took out
::to pay for all of this beautiful equipment it's going for that extra training
::that everybody is paying for and doing it's going for our cleaning you know
::it's going for our administrators like all of these things and then all of those
::people have to pay rent in a very expensive city and you know I think people
::don't think about where their money actually is going. So,
::Yeah.
::What role does the teacher training play from a business standpoint?
::You kind of alluded before that that's really helped you with the competitors that are popping up.
::Yeah. I think one, it gives us a strong reputation.
::So when people see that we're also doing instructor training out of our studio,
::there's a reputation piece.
::There's a financial piece that's great because there's sort of a,
::you know, depending on how many people we get in our group classes or group
::teacher training sessions, there will be like a nice influx of cash to the studio.
::And then also having, we've been doing one or two summer courses off-site for
::the past three years, which summer often is a bit of a dip in the business.
::And then that kind of just gives us a little financial boost
::as well um and then as
::well as that was we often draw our new instructors out of
::our teacher training programs because we know
::how they teach you know we'll bring them in as a junior instructor um
::we can't we can't do that with everyone it's not we don't we're not a big enough
::studio um it also
::connects us to other studios in town because we
::have a number of studios and teachers who own spaces
::that will directly come to tiffany and i asking for
::instructors um what about just
::from a revenue standpoint like is it a substantial fraction
::of your revenue or is it kind of just a bit of extra pocket money i'd say it's
::a substantial fraction of our revenue our main revenue is still our day-to-day
::classes um i don't have my you know annual spreadsheet out in front of me to
::see what it what it is but it depends i mean if we can fill.
::Fill our classes or our sessions.
::So our ideal is an eight-person group. We often get a smaller group than that, so it kind of depends.
::If we have over four, it's a nice little fraction of our monthly revenue. If we're.
::If we're just doing kind of in-studio teacher training for some of our existing
::teachers, it's, you know, kind of the same as teaching, maybe a little bit more
::than teaching a group class. Yeah.
::So I want to move sort of sideways into a couple of questions about how you train your staff.
::And so one of the things that really struck me in looking
::through your website is that you do
::have a proprietary method of teaching and that
::there is there seems to be a really clear alignment between
::all of your teachers in how you deliver the
::sessions and I think that is something I think
::about a lot and I think that's something that
::classical studios by and large
::got really right is a real alignment between the teaching
::styles and kind of almost a fanatical adherence to the
::method of of you know of of teaching
::where i
::think some more modern studios i would
::say contemporary or fitness based studios often make
::the mistake of just sort of hiring an instructor and going oh
::the studio is that way you know go for it everybody's a unique brilliant creative
::you know spark and you just teach whatever you want i wouldn't you know deign
::to tell you how to do your job and then you just end up with total chaos and
::like 10 instructors teaching 10 different styles of pilates and no through line
::of what what a class at this studio is like.
::Seems like you've struck a pretty good balance there between like this is the
::way we do it and everyone has to do it this way versus like okay being a creative
::as an instructor so how do you How do you strike that balance and how right
::do you feel like you've got it?
::Um, yeah, no, thanks. Uh, that's, it's a great question.
::Um, it's something that I learned from teaching. So I started teaching at Pilates
::Process Toronto, which back then was called Riverdale Pilates,
::owned by Laura Housel, who came up with the method of Pilates Process.
::And the method itself it has some very specific parameters like our principles.
::However there's not a ton of rigidity within that but we do have things like
::sort of things we want our teachers to avoid like certain types of cueing certain
::types of things that we want to make sure that they're avoiding and then we
::also have things that we want to make sure that they're keeping in mind and adhering to.
::Within that, they can bring their own personality, they can plan their own class,
::and they can come up with their own kind of exercises here and there within that.
::But we do ask that all our instructors follow the same approach to an introductory session.
::So it doesn't mean they have to do all the same exercises, but we have like
::a little, the first sort of five to 10 minutes should be addressed in pretty
::much the exact same way, unless there's some major exceptions for therapeutic reasons.
::We also want to make sure that they're teaching, you know, they are teaching
::the meat and potatoes of the repertoire.
::And when they're going off the repertoire, and this is something I don't know
::if they are actually adhering to because it's been a while since we've had a
::group meeting, but I've asked, I'm like, you know,
::let your clients know when they're not really doing Pilates or when they're
::doing something really creative and when they're doing something that's a bit
::more standard, just so they have a,
::I mean, obviously that can't happen every class, but so they have a sense of
::what the basics are. So they can go to any class.
::The cueing is going to be very similar.
::The, you know, the way that we use our spring settings is going to be very similar.
::So even if the exercises themselves, they might do some creative different series,
::they still have a sense of how we're looking at
::moving our bodies and engaging our muscles and
::all that kind of thing and how that makes sense and how
::do you uh i mean
::i think i know the answer to this question but because you
::have your own teacher training obviously i'm assuming that you only hire
::people that have gone through your training is that correct not a hundred percent
::we have a couple that came from other methods but when they come in for a interview
::we ask them to do a like teach a you know 20 to 30 minute session um and i'll
::also have a conversation and say,
::listen, this is how we approach Pilates. This is what we ask.
::How do you feel about that? Does that align with you as an instructor?
::Because we also don't want instructors teaching in a way that feels wrong to them.
::Like if someone's like, we're not classical. If somebody really aligns with
::the classical method, I will say, listen, go teach at a studio that aligns with
::the classical method so you can do you.
::Like we don't want our teachers to come across as inauthentic or be struggling.
::So it's a bit of a, it's like you're interviewing us and we're interviewing
::you. This is how we teach.
::Does this align? Or do you like this? Or do you want to maybe start to integrate
::some of this into your teaching?
::And the teachers who've stayed with us say, yeah, that's cool. I like that.
::And I'm like, okay, we want you to be open to maybe coming in and shadowing
::a course or auditing a class or take some classes so that you feel like you're
::aligning with how we're teaching here and it's not contradictory.
::And how do you – there's that boundary thing again.
::And how do you monitor that?
::Like do you audit their classes or like how do you basically –
::check that they're doing it so tiffany's in
::the studio a little like more than i am usually like we're around
::so we'll kind of keep our ears open and if we
::kind of hear an instructor teaching in a way that doesn't really align with
::us you know i might go hey like can we do a you know if they're a newer instructor
::it's like can we do a you know a one-on-one mentoring session um we will have
::meetings with our full staff and bring up things.
::So, you know, something that came up probably about a year ago is because we're
::therapeutic, we had a number of instructors who.
::We felt we're teaching almost too cautiously and we
::have a lot of people who come in for fitness as well so
::it's like it needs to be therapeutic but they also need to feel like they're getting
::a workout and they're getting stronger um and so
::we had you know a group kind of
::chat and uh brainstorming session just
::saying you know we can we can put
::more weights on the machines like we want to see like a little
::bit more of the fitness aspect happening in the group classes um even if you
::want to like warm them up to get to that uh and we've also you know we send
::out the occasional email just it doesn't happen that often but when we do kind
::of see that we think that people are kind of veering off what we want to be
::offering we'll just bring everybody in,
::have a chat you you have a model where multiple instructors teach one-on-ones in the same room.
::Yeah so we'll have usually it's like no more
::than three i'd say no more than two in the
::exact same room because we have like a partition so we can
::have one private session in the back and then a couple of sessions
::in the front but basically you can eavesdrop in a good way um and also that
::goes to ways that the the other instructors kind of pick up by osmosis like
::what what you and tiffany are doing right yeah so that's kind of like you're
::auditing classes 10 times a week,
::yeah and i mean that's how i started when i was teaching in toronto i was very
::lucky my first couple of years at the Toronto studio.
::I was just surrounded by teachers that were way more experienced and better than I was.
::And they, you know, even just during breaks, we would chat and I'd ask them
::questions and they'd give me tips.
::There was a physiotherapist who, you know, at the time that was working,
::you know, so we just had this, I was getting constant every day I went into work.
::I was training, you know, just from being around these amazing instructors.
::Many studio owners worry about pouring too much into their staff and training
::their staff too much because they're worried they'll leave and start up their
::own thing and steal their clients and open up a competing studio across the road sort of thing.
::Is that something that keeps you awake at night? And if so, how do you approach
::that? Yeah, that's also a good question.
::One thing we've done really well is retaining our staff. Um,
::I think again, it's kind of a boundaries conversation and something I did at
::the beginning. And when I've brought people in is let them know the power that they have.
::And then also let them know the power that we have. And that this is a reciprocal relationship.
::And I'm like, technically, I'm like, you guys can, you could leave and try to
::pinch all our clients and open up a studio down the street.
::Um, would we be happy about that? No. Would it be ethical?
::Not really. you know and so we're kind of counting on this reciprocal respect
::we have we do have teachers who work multiple places and we have once or twice
::just had to sit down and have a frank conversation about the boundaries around
::our business versus their business you know um.
::Using our space to benefit their business using
::we have rules around social media it's like you
::cannot record yourself in our studio doing moves
::and then put it on your personal instagram account to
::promote something you're doing elsewhere you can
::promote what you're doing at our studio and i think there's
::an element of vulnerability there too just saying listen like
::this this isn't fair and just explaining it
::to them and that and we pick good people that we have good you
::know a good sense about but there's always
::the risk you know there's always the risk of
::a teacher deciding that they're gonna go off do their
::own thing and inevitably some of their clients will follow them it happens and
::we have to just know that that is part of it um but for the most part we have
::not had to deal with that in any kind of significant way as of like this date yeah okay Yeah.
::I mean, I pretty much take the same mindset. It's like, at the end of the day, you can't enforce.
::You can't control it. So I think, and if you try to, they lose respect and then they get upset.
::So I think being really honest and being like, listen, this is a reciprocal
::situation. I don't have power over you.
::However, I'm not going to refer people to you if you screw me over.
::You know what I mean? Yeah.
::I want to shift gear now and talk about your opening of the studio and a couple
::of other questions around um just the internal workings of it so firstly like
::you know you're affiliated with with laura in toronto she started that pilates process method,
::you know you moved across to vancouver why did you choose to open a studio affiliated
::with laura rather than just kind of i mean she already taught you right you
::knew that the skills and you know why not just do why not just still teach the
::same method but just like call it your own thing why did you choose to affiliate with her.
::I think the choice to do that, it's a good question because I remember thinking
::about that and I think the major thing was the reputation of the brand.
::It's like opening a brand new studio but having 20 years of solid reputation
::of the name brand behind it.
::So when people looked up Pilates process, they could go, like originally we
::piggybacked on their website as well and there was a Vancouver tab.
::There's a tab but it's like we actually manage our own website.
::Site, but they used to manage the website.
::So we've, we've become more and more independent over the years,
::but we started off with a really strong piggybacking on their, on their website.
::Um, we, we went through them for any kind of website changes.
::Um, and it was just a way to have that reputation. And I, I have a good relationship with Laura.
::Uh, we are not a franchise of theirs though. We license their brand.
::So we pay them a licensee an annual licensing
::fee and then for our teacher training we pay them a licensing
::percentage for each course that we teach so
::as a business we don't run our
::business the way they run their business but we do we
::sell sort of their methodology right that makes sense yeah yeah that does make
::a lot of sense and so what's what level of oversight if any does laura have
::like you know over how you do things you know like for instance you're teaching
::education courses and certifying people in her method you know how much does
::she scrutinize what you do there.
::We have you know probably about quarterly
::meetings her and i talking about where the courses are
::going um it's funny because laura's so she's really
::brilliant and she's very passionate about pilates but we joke that
::she's like oh you're the business here comes the business person because I'm
::always like I'm actually the one who tends to chase
::her and go what are you doing and are we aligning and
::we want to make sure that it's still in sync and
::is this okay like we're we we really want to make sure that we are respecting
::the method she comes to Vancouver usually a couple times a year one of us tries
::to go to Toronto once a year and take classes and see and then we'll bring stuff
::up and I'll go oh I noticed that like for example we decided to take,
::the imprint out of our method, like just the word, you know?
::Because you guys, because she originally grew up in Stott Pilates, right? So it was me.
::And then she became, she got more into the therapeutic post-rehab stuff.
::Yeah. Yeah. Which, which has informed the whole method. So the whole method is kind of shifted.
::So something like that where we're like, oh, we took this out and then,
::you know, went to the studio and I took a session with her, one of her new instructors
::who was using that terminology.
::And so then I'm like, well, what are we doing?
::Like, what's like, what do you think? And where is this? So we'll have discussions
::amongst the teacher trainers.
::We're not exactly like we're different. You know, we definitely teach a little
::bit differently, but we still follow the five principles of Pilates process.
::So there's some slight differentiation.
::We'll even sometimes have clients who are taking some of their online classes
::out of Toronto and they'll go, oh, I was doing this on the online class and they did this.
::And so there's it's just a kind of keeping track, communicating,
::having our meetings. Laura comes and occasionally teaches workshops for us and vice versa.
::So it's not, you know, to a T exactly the same.
::There's a different, there's a different little bit of a different style,
::but it's, it's pretty aligned.
::Yeah. What about the partnership between you and Alison, who's also a partner
::in the Vancouver studio?
::Tiffany. Oh, sorry. My apologies, Tiffany. Yeah, that's okay.
::Sorry, Tiffany. Shout out. um why did
::you decide to partner with tiffany and and
::how do you make decisions as and how do you divide responsibilities
::um i met
::tiffany through my mom actually who was teaching pilates in colonna which is
::a town about four hours out of vancouver where i grew up and she started teaching
::under pilates process method moved to vancouver so i just knew her as an instructor,
::in town and we would like when Laura came into town we did a couple of the same workshops and then.
::She was kind of being eyeballed as a potential teacher training apprentice.
::And she became a teacher training apprentice. And then I approached her about opening a studio.
::I think the key things is, one, why it works.
::She loves, she can teach like seven hours a day.
::Like she can just, she's a machine. She loves teaching. She's great at it.
::I am not that person. I cannot teach those kinds of hours. and I knew that I
::did not want to teach full-time.
::I love the teacher training. I love overseeing. I was interested in running a business.
::I love teaching, but I don't love teaching even, I wouldn't even say I teach,
::like I teach probably less than part-time and then sometimes I'll teach very
::intensively when it comes to teacher training.
::So I more oversee the business. I manage the teacher training and she is our
::resident kinesiologist.
::She teaches full-time, and she very much also informs how we teach.
::She's got her ear to the ground when it comes to anything new,
::like therapeutically, or what are people doing within the industry.
::So we kind of divide it up a little bit. And there's crossover,
::obviously, but generally I'm
::more overseeing, and she's the person on the ground, if that makes sense.
::And that's also why I wanted to partner with her.
::And so how do you make decisions? Like if you wanted to think about,
::you know, I don't know, adding an extra reformer or changing your pricing or
::just like how much consultation do you do? Does it need to be consensus?
::You know, what if it's a deadlock, you know, who overrules who?
::Yeah, we actually work really well together. We're quite clear.
::We communicate very clearly. So we're good at saying what we're thinking or feeling. Yeah.
::And generally, it's a consensus. There have been times where I tend to be a
::little more like pushing for things on the on the business end.
::And I'll kind of I'll explain my case. And if she's really unsure, we'll, we'll table it.
::But we do tend to trust each other. And she does trust me with that kind of
::a thing. If I'm like, you know, listen, we need to add a fifth machine.
::And we, you know, I know, like, we need to we need to do this in order to,
::like, grow revenue in the long run.
::And to also just like be competitive um
::so we trust each other's judgment
::and our specific areas of expertise for the most part
::and if there's anything that it's kind of like uh i'm not
::sure or like no then it just doesn't happen you know we don't yeah so uh luckily
::so far we haven't come to head with anything that would be like a deal breaker
::and what about financial remuneration like something that i struggled with when
::i had partners in my studio was i was working full-time in the studio.
::And they weren't and so because you and Tiffany have very different roles like
::she's teaching 40 hours a week and you're teaching much less than that I'm sure you do other stuff,
::but like I can imagine for her if she's in that studio seven hours a day and
::she's like looks around and you're not there a lot of the time she's like you
::know and I know you said there's a lot of trust there so I don't I don't imagine
::it's a problem but it's my question is how do you do you guys get paid a wage for,
::for your duties within the studio and then divide up the profits after that?
::Or how do you kind of structure that so that you both feel that the reward and
::the work are, you know, fairly compensated?
::Yeah. So we started that way. We started with, um,
::we got paid for our hours and then we both kind of took like a,
::a base administrative fee with the idea that we were putting in an estimated
::amount of hours per week administration-wise.
::I'd say about three or four years ago, we moved to salaries and she makes more
::than me because she works more than me.
::So we just kind of negotiate our salaries.
::So annually, we'll kind of take a look at who's making what.
::We also still keep track.
::We try to keep track of some of our hours like our teaching hours are kept
::track of on our um uh our
::what's the word our jane like system that
::we have the app that we run everything through um the
::teacher training is not recorded there so our bookkeeper keeps
::track of that revenue so we still kind of take note
::of like that sort of thing um and
::then we just kind of balance out the salary but
::she definitely puts and more hours than me so she and that's
::how I like it and so because I do other things as well I'm also you know in
::the creative world so uh yeah we talk we negotiate and that's that's about it
::what would you say is the biggest challenge for you right now in the business.
::I think a couple of things, and we're actually just at a point where we will
::be debt-free, I think, as of today, which is amazing.
::So we are going to be looking into, we're looking into leaning into some more advertising.
::So advertising has been, we haven't really put money into it.
::So outreach and trying to really get people to find us. like the exact clients
::who are looking for what we offer.
::We have it. I just would love it to be more, a lot more than that.
::So I'm always like, we're fine. We're good. Like the business is doing well,
::but I feel like it should be stronger.
::So getting the word of mouth and the right sort of clients that want exactly what we offer.
::And then our administration, we have a really good little team of administrators,
::but we are in a transitionary period right now where we need to look at a little
::more consistency with our administration.
::We've kind of usually had teachers who also do admin or teachers who also do
::cleaning or, you know, and because they're primarily instructors,
::eventually, and they're young, they eventually, you know, don't have as much
::interest in the administrative stuff.
::And so it'll maybe go by the wayside slightly, and they're focusing on their teaching.
::That being said, it's still a lot better than I know that a lot of businesses deal with.
::But I think tightening up our administrative system is something I'd really
::like to see and has been challenging and getting the advertising into the kind
::of correct demographic.
::What's held you back from marketing?
::I think just the unwillingness to
::sink a lot of money into
::ads without that guaranteed feedback when the studio has been like we haven't
::really needed it if that makes sense like we're we're good but we do want to
::see our instructors schedules fill more um and i think just that hesitation
::of throwing a bunch of money into advertising without like a guaranteed reward,
::um although i have been we've we've decided we're going to go with some google
::ads because i've had multiple people tell us like they're very effective we're
::going to give that a shot that's scary i think it's just scary,
::uh okay yeah,
::I guess I'm trying to formulate a question around that because you seem in many
::ways you've sort of like approached things head on that have been uncomfortable for you.
::But this is something that's like, okay, it's 2019, it's now 2025.
::Yeah, we all have our Achilles heel. Yeah, I think just, yeah,
::it's not it's not my personal area of expertise, like sort of the financial
::end, the advertising end.
::It's, you know, even like like we have put in like, you know,
::Facebook ads and Instagram ads and we've done things like that.
::So we've done a small we've put a small amount of money into ads.
::Yeah, I think it's just a it's a personal mind, a bit of a block,
::you know. And I think because we're like, well, we're going to wait until we
::are no longer paying off large amounts of debt before we pour it.
::I was more willing to say, yeah, let's buy another $8,000 machine.
::Because that's inside your comfort zone. You know what to do with the machine.
::I know what to do with it. And I know that we have a wait list.
::And I know that that spot will be filled.
::And so it's that element of taking those financial leaps and risks. Yeah. Yeah.
::And marketing is just like teaching Pilates in that it's a skill and when you first do it, you suck.
::And, you know, you get better at it over time and with mentoring and training, you get better faster.
::But you pay, you know, the fee that you pay to learn marketing is all of the
::wasted ad spend that you do at the beginning because you write terrible ads and they don't work.
::And you just, you know, just like probably the first 100 clients you taught,
::you know, you probably look back and feel bad for what a terrible experience
::they have. Telling them this and telling them, like, oh, I shouldn't have made them do that thing.
::Yeah. Yeah, it's the same with marketing.
::What is your goal for the business? Like, it's going pretty well.
::Like, are you just happy with it now and we're like, great, let's just keep
::doing what we're doing? Or do you have ambitions to grow it or change it or
::build it in a different way?
::Yeah, it's funny because we've kind of sort of settled the past little bit.
::I'm always like, oh, we should do this or we should do this.
::Or we have talked about potentially, what if we opened a second location?
::What would that look like? We had a potential opportunity a few years back that
::we were interested in and we didn't take it, which was a good thing.
::Um, but it made us start, start to think about things like, what about a physical,
::like expansion? Um, yeah.
::And then also thinking about what about more of an online expansion.
::So definitely we do have ambitions to grow either virtually or physically.
::And then, of course, fill the studio that we have. I would love to have wait
::lists for our private clients.
::That's what I want. I want that. What percentage, if you had to guesstimate
::it, is your capacity utilization of the spots that you have available in the week?
::Or let me say, of the spots that you could have available in the week,
::what percentage of your total capacity would you say you're using at the moment in the present studio?
::Again the numbers we're we're a lot more full than we used to be um we usually
::have a little bit of a lull in the afternoon where like there's a couple hours
::where the studio is empty.
::Yeah so most days it's usually somewhere between like
::1 and 5 p.m where there's
::a lot of days where we just have you know a couple of
::blackout hours where there's
::nobody there yeah you said you have wait lists though
::for the group classes how many group classes are you running on a
::weekly basis oh my gosh that's a good question i think we're up like over
::30 group classes a week i forgot
::the number and what stops you from just putting on more group
::classes it's the
::prime time right because like we could add a class
::but nobody wants that time so we've had things where it's
::like okay we're trying to add so we will push it down and back but usually
::it's like everybody wants the same the same
::day the same time of the week at my
::studio it was monday 6 p.m yeah yeah
::and we have like you know we we are going to add another we're we add classes
::whenever we see the potential and opportunity um and i think you know the thing
::too with reaching out with advertising like looking at okay hopefully we'll
::be able to fill some group classes that are just slightly,
::different hours for, you know, people who have alternate schedules.
::What is, you know, when you say you, when you want to expand, you know.
::Why like is that do you have do you want to make more money or like what is
::the what is the carrot you know what is drawing you towards that yeah I think the thought of um.
::Expansion there's I mean of course money great um no I don't want to make more
::money I hate money um I mean that would be great I think also like I do really believe in the.
::It's both very, like, inclusive to a lot of different approaches,
::and it's also just very smart, and I would love to see people that I know who
::want to take Pilates taking Pilates from a method that I think is really solid.
::So from like kind of an outreach perspective of
::like getting more people to do to approach
::fitness in this particular way that we approach fitness
::I'd love to be able to provide more hours for our amazing teachers that we train
::because we do all these courses and wouldn't it be amazing to go and at the
::end of the course there's actually a bigger chance that you could work at a
::Pilates process studio and actually stay kind of true to this methodology so from kind of a,
::you know, visionary standpoint that, that, that's that.
::And then of course, yeah, it'd be great to have that revenue,
::but that's only going to happen if the studio is successful and you fill the studio.
::Yeah. The most successful studio owners I know have that combination of a financial
::goal and also kind of missionary zeal to, you know, spread, spread the word.
::Spread the good word of our cult of Pilates. Drink the Kool-Aid.
::Yeah. You know, glancing at your schedule, I see that you run like one-hour
::classes and they run back-to-back, so you run like nine till 10 and then 10
::till 11 or whatever it would be.
::You know, the...
::The successful studios, like my history is I'm very fortunate.
::I've got a CFO who works for my company fractionally. He's got his own business. He's an accountant.
::But basically his main business is he does accounting for Pilates Studios.
::And so he's got the numbers for dozens, probably like a hundred-ish Pilates Studios.
::And so I've seen anonymized financial data for a lot of Pilates Studios.
::I know what the good ones do, what the average ones do, what the poor ones do.
::And I also coach Pilates studio owners. Like I've probably got a dozen private clients that I coach.
::And so what I see very, very consistently is like 50 to 55 classes a week is
::the most successful studios run 50 to 55 classes a week.
::And I have two studio owners who run 70, seven zero classes,
::group classes per week at a single location.
::Nice. And so when you tell me you've got like 30 classes, I think like you are
::nowhere near maximized at yourself.
::You could probably increase your revenue by, I mean, I don't know what your
::revenue is, but just based on the number of classes that you could fill,
::I think you could increase your revenue by like 80% and probably your profits
::by 250% would be my guess.
::By getting more, obviously, more people in the front door and maximizing your schedule.
::And that might, you know, that might involve some structural changes to how you put the classes.
::Like a lot of the most popular class studios do 45-minute classes back-to-back
::rather than the hour classes.
::You know, you can still do really well with the hour classes,
::but the 45 minute classes do take advantage of, like you said,
::the people want to come at very specific times.
::And if you do like, if you've got, for instance, uh, you know,
::a nine 30 AM and a 10 30 AM, if you ran like a nine 15, a 10 and then a 10 45,
::you could essentially squeeze three classes into that same time window,
::which means 50% more clients, you know, which is not nothing. So anyway, uh,
::That's actually a good point because I was down and I was taking some classes.
::I was in LA taking classes and a lot of them were 45 minutes, which feels short.
::We've had clients complain if it's not 55 minutes instead of five, zero minutes.
::So again, it's easing the existing loyal clients into these sort of new kind of offerings.
::But that's an interesting stat. Yeah. Well, any, I mean, any change like this,
::I've found the most, the the the best
::process is to first get clear on where you
::want to go and that is obviously something for you and tiffany
::to you know to to agree on and then
::then once you agree okay here's where we want to go then you work backwards
::and you go okay how do we do a change management process to minimize the friction
::to get from here to there but i think what a lot of people the mistake a lot
::of studio owners make is they think i sally in my 10 a.m class will get really upset if i'd you know,
::if we change it and therefore they don't set a goal of like,
::here's what I would like to my business to be like in a year or five years based
::on Sally in the 10am class.
::Why is Sally running your business?
::Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
::Um, but with, I think, you know, based, you know, and this is unsolicited advice,
::so please forgive me, but, um, based on what you've, you know,
::what we've talked about, you've built a real, a business got some really great strengths.
::I mean, you've got a really coherent team. You've got a fantastic method that
::you're aligned around. It's a very consistent experience.
::You've got highly loyal clients who have been with you for years.
::You know, like there's so much that is going right about your business.
::And it seems to me like it's the only sort
::of underpowered part is the marketing engine and
::the uh you know and probably once
::you not probably once you get on top of that what you'll find very quickly is
::you run out of capacity in your classes which you're already kind of hitting
::up against by the sounds of things with the waitlist and so the biggest constraint
::right now is getting people in the front door but very soon after that when
::you get more people in front door the biggest in Australia. It's like,
::well, where do we put them now?
::And so you've got to get the schedule sorted so that it can accommodate those extra people.
::But I think you can more than double the profit of your current business and
::probably more than double the number of people that you serve in the same physical location.
::Right. Which is ideal because you don't want to have that overhead of the physical space somewhere.
::Right. And when I opened my second location, even though it was less than,
::it was like just over half a mile away from the first one. It was very, very close.
::It's four times more complicated running two studios as one because you've got
::two schedules that don't overlap.
::You've got two sets of like instructor, you know, covers and things that you've got to,
::you know, how do you share the revenue between someone buys a pass at studio
::A and then uses it at studio B,
::you know, like there's so many different extra complexities to,
::to, to, and beyond of course what you said about double rent and double insurance
::and all of that stuff. Yeah.
::So if I, if, if I were you, that's, and if I wanted to, grow my impact and grow
::my brand and grow my living. I'll think about that. Yeah.
::Is there anything else that you'd like to share or discuss?
::You know, you've got a platform here. There's probably 5,000 Pilates instructors
::and studio owners listening to this right now.
::Well, not right now, but like over the next six months.
::Just preach? Yeah, preach, ask, share. What would you like to finish with?
::Yeah, I don't know. I think that something we get with people who want to become
::Pilates instructors, they'll often immediately kind of ask, oh, what jobs are there?
::They want to know, are they going to immediately be working full time and how
::much are they going to get paid and all of this.
::And people who maybe are transitioning from not wanting to work like that nine
::to five job and then they're jumping into Pilates and...
::And I'm just bringing this up because it's come up a few times recently with people.
::And I think when you jump into something where you're going to become an independent
::contractor or you've decided to shift your career to like, I'm going to be a
::Pilates instructor, there's more risk there.
::It's a different type of work model.
::You don't have the security of your 9-to-5 job with your benefits.
::You might end up at a large studio that provides that. Those are options.
::Options, but more likely you're going to be piecing together an hour here,
::five hours there, maybe doing your own online thing.
::And you become your own kind of business owner as well. Like you become your own business.
::And I love that. And I think it's amazing. I think it provides you with a lot
::of freedom, a lot of autonomy, but it's also a different kind of work.
::And it's not necessarily easy.
::Like it's not simple. And I think when people are jumping into Pilates,
::like, oh, I'm just going to go from being, you know, an accounts manager to a Pilates instructor.
::And And they don't realize like that they're going into an entirely different
::model of living their life, you know, and I love it. I think it's great.
::But there's a lot of different factors involved. It's not going to just be like
::a smooth kind of like jump jump because you're also learning different personal management skills.
::Like you're managing your life in a different way. You're managing your finances in a different way.
::You're figuring out your capacity to work. Like they're like,
::okay, so if I teach 40 hours a week, I'm like, you're not going to teach 40
::hours a week. You're going to be exhausted.
::You don't do that like we don't teach that's not it's a different thing
::it's not like a regular job where you can work 40
::hours a week it's you're doing training you're doing
::your own administration you're doing your accounting you're you're doing your own classes
::you're taking care of your health and your body in a different way um so yeah
::i think that's the thing that's been kind of popped in especially with people
::inquiring about teacher training i think it's a an amazing thing to do however
::it is very different it's a very different lifestyle to work in this way.
::What sort of person have you seen thrive in that transition or what strategies?
::I think people who love it, like they, you know, like they got to have that
::like hunger and that they love it and they're passionate about it and they,
::they want to teach because each, each teaching hour is an opportunity to learn.
::I think finding a method that aligns with your curiosity and kind of aligns
::with how you would approach you know like teaching or doing uh it can't be just
::oh i've memorized this pilates class and i'm going to teach it you're going to be bored,
::you know you have to figure out what it is about that approach to pilates research
::what method you're going to take training with go take a class with the method
::that you want to take training with and like make sure you like it and and and
::you're interested in and it's something that Yeah, sparks your curiosity.
::And I think also people who have a lot of initiative and they're willing to
::say, I love working with you like a client.
::Come back to class. See you next week. Oh, you know, if you come to a private
::session, we could target this specific thing.
::Like you're offering great things to people. So don't be afraid to sell yourself.
::I guess. Ha ha ha. Allison, marketing. um don't be afraid to sell yourself and
::also just being creative and having initiative and being willing to you know
::work a different type of schedule to start building clients yeah yeah agreed i would also add that um.
::And with the, there's a proliferation of, you know, do two weeks in Bali,
::become a Pilates instructor, you know, those type of courses.
::And it's, it, it's, it's very curious to me that a lot of people,
::you know, because the people who want to become a Pilates instructor,
::I think by and large, they're passionate about Pilates.
::That's why they, you know, no one wants to become a Pilates instructor because
::they want to make all the money in the world.
::You know, it's like merchant banking or Pilates instructing.
::Yeah, yeah. um so so but for people
::who are super passionate about pilates and really wanted to help
::people experience the same transformation they've experienced it's like
::what part of a two-week course in bali or a self-paced
::online video program like what part of that
::makes you feel like you're gonna learn to yeah
::actually become a transformational teacher we
::always say like this training is just you're just scraping the
::surface you're just getting to the point of being able to like lead a
::class you know and this is just the beginning of your
::education like it's and i did
::start with a different method and i found i got kind of bored with it after
::like a year and then i jumped in with laura and it was much more exploratory
::and i got to use my own brain and i got to you know like ask the types of questions
::and you know it wasn't so rigid and i think yeah it's just the beginning of
::your learning because the body human body's endless everybody's different.
::Um the things that are coming out research-wise keep changing
::so even if you know everything now you're not going to know everything in two
::years from now so there's just really an endless opportunity
::to explore um and i think yeah exactly like okay
::learn learn pilates in two weeks i'm like that's that's just that's just the
::beginning like yeah test it out give it a taste see if you like it but that's
::not that's not it that's not the end of it it's been a really really great conversation
::i've really appreciated learning about you you know what what's going on at Pilates process.
::I think you've obviously built something fantastic. You should be really proud.
::I hope you take a moment from time to time to just sit back and bask in the
::achievements that you've made. I know it's easy to lose track of that in the
::day-to-day grind and noticing the things that aren't right, but yeah,
::you're doing so much right by the sounds of things.
::And thanks so much for coming on the program. I think people will get a lot out of this.
::Well, thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you. And yeah, likewise.
